Embryonic Stem-Cell Research

[CaritateDei]

Maybe because we should not be playing God and trying to start life outside of the Womb in the first place.

While that would be more consistent where this particular issue is concerned it also opens up a "can of worms" in other areas.

Are we "playing God" when we get open-heart surgery? When we get a flu shot; chemotherapy, immunizations, etc? Is it "playing God" when we treat any illness or injuries; OR is it "immulating God"?

I think immulating God in order to help people live longer and healthier lives is a good thing. Perhaps when people are beyond help yet we try to preseve a "living corpse" is when we cross the line both spiritually and ethically and it turns into "playing God"; jmho.

Please spell check...

Chemotherapy does not commit evil. A flu shot is not inherently evil. Immunizations are not inherently evil.

Call it emulating God all you want, but God would not kill so that others may live. Directly killing a human being so that someone else can live is purely evil and selfish. Helping others to lead longer lives to do it is fine, but causing others to die...and that is what happens here...others DIE...in order to help live those longer lives has no sound ethics at all.

[Hypathia]

Please spell check...

Chemotherapy does not commit evil. A flu shot is not inherently evil. Immunizations are not inherently evil.

Call it emulating God all you want, but God would not kill so that others may live. Directly killing a human being so that someone else can live is purely evil and selfish. Helping others to lead longer lives to do it is fine, but causing others to die...and that is what happens here...others DIE...in order to help live those longer lives has no sound ethics at all.

Misguided emotional appeal; empathy misdirected.

Practice reading comprehension before commenting on the spelling errors of others.

I was referring to God being good, to God helping others just as Jesus did when he spat and rubbed mud on the blind man's eyes to make him see. God works thru people to accomplish much good and we can and should immulate this good behavior through medicine as well as many other areas in life.

These microscopic, petrie dish embryos are not people even though they have the potential to become people when all 4 Biblical components are met. The embryos in question are comprised of around 150 cells which stop replicating after about two weeks if not planted in the womb; so just as the Bible says, the womb is a requirement on the journey to life.

Directly killing a human being so someone else can live??? That's not what is happening here; these embryos are being destroyed as medical waste every year across this country; they are not being "killed so someone else can live". They're being "killed" because people want a baby or two and not a 20, 30, 40 or more. Your oppostion to stem-cell research will not and has not prevented the destruction of these embryos and it won't in the future; therefore, the only human beings you may be taking part in killing are those who might have their lives saved, their illnesses cured or their organs replaced with a perfect DNA match to their own body.

[Hypathia]

You may say, "But that's not what I'm arguing." You're right, however, your philosophical stance has no "stop button." That is to say, if you argue that life doesn't begin at conception, you lose Biblical ground to say when life begins. In the Bible, the punishment for hitting a woman, thus causing her to have a miscarriage was death...just hitting a pregnant woman would cause you to have to pay a penalty that the husband saw fit. The Bible has seen life beginning from conception. If you say it doesn't, then you have to tell us when life begins...and it has to fit with all of scripture (which, any other definition outside of "conception" will not be able to do this).

The bible tells us when "life and soul" begins as I've pointed out time and again scripturally. -- The verse you are referring to does not say the punishment for causing a miscarriage was death. The verse says that the punishment for causing a miscarriage was a "fine"; if the woman died then the punishment was death.

Your logic is faulty; your negative emotional appeals are miguided and inappropriately applied and your flimsy attempt at misusing one verse is both misleading and dishonest. Evidently YOU have not studied this issue as you should have.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Hypathia

[RebekahDavid]

"As to whether or not that little human being has a soul we really don't know do we."

Amen Papa's

Herein lies the problem with those of you who would argue that the embryo's are not worthy of consideration. You are not God! You can not be 100% sure that these are not little human beings without soul. Why would you risk that?

Trust science to tell you? Let me relate what they told me.

I knew the day my first child was conceived. I felt life at two months (flutters like butterflies) the drs said that was impossible that early i must be 4 months pregnant and moved up my "due" date. (By the way my OBGYN was a nationally recognized leader in the his field and often traveled around the country to speak and teach.)

It was not only possible but she was born only two days late according to my time table instead a month plus according to theirs. Healthy happy and at 6 pounds 12 ounces obviously not over due without complications.

Science while helpful is not God. Science is not perfect in what it claims to guess at at times.

Suddenly science is recommending that you sing talk count to this "embyro" as it is affected but outside sounds. Not too long ago before birth that was considered impossible they were not capable of thinking feeling being influenced. Can you risk guessing on "when" life begins? As for me God is the judge not science.

It cannot be proven either way although personally I believe it does have a "soul". Amen

Amen ((((((((hugs papa's)))))))))

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

[Hypathia]

That's a beautiful emotional appeal there Rebekah. You felt the baby in your womb not a petrie dish. Many of us have felt the flutterings of our unborn children at some point only to have them micarry later. You carried your child for awhile; you didn't give birth the day you conceived. Remember those bible verses I posted: 1) conception 2) womb 3) blood and 4) breath.

Keep your eye on the ball here people. When you would rather see microscopic leftover embryos go from the petrie dish into the trash then you are devaluing the lives of the disabled, the afflicted and those in pain; you are saying that those people, those souls, are not worthy of your consideration; that your idealogy is more important to you.

btw Rebekah -- I hope your child remains healthy all her life. Many start out healthy but unfortunately they don't always stay that way; and that is when through God's mercy science can help you.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Hypathia

[RebekahDavid]

"then you are devaluing the lives of the disabled, the afflicted and those in pain; you are saying that those people, those souls, are not worthy of your consideration; that your idealogy is more important to you."

NO! i am not devaluing life- nowhere can you point to that in my statement . I do NOT devalue the life of the disabled nor those in pain. I not only value them but have had the blessings of interacting with many who are disabled or in pain personally. Much interaction- human interaction filled with the love of God- much time, and much love given and received as well. Some up to their final breaths. I have been richly blessed to be able to do so. I would suggest if they are worthy of your consideration you would be blessed to do so as well.

To judge where life begins is God's job- as i said earlier you are not God and can not be sure 100%. and nothing you have posted proves or disproves your theory it is only speculation on your part.

Choose this day whom you will serve as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

PS My children well or unwell are a gift from God and as such are blessings regardless of their health or how long they are with me or i them.

[apothanein kerdos]

The bible tells us when "life and soul" begins as I've pointed out time and again scripturally. -- The verse you are referring to does not say the punishment for causing a miscarriage was death. The verse says that the punishment for causing a miscarriage was a "fine"; if the woman died then the punishment was death.

If you want to debate that, I'm game. The English translation is wrong. The Hebrew translation is much superior and shows how the English is wrong.

Did you have anything else in response to what I said? Of course not...you're like the Strawman and Tinman all rolled into one!

Here's a copy of my post, since you didn't deal with it:

You kill the spirit and the body of REAL people when you stand in the way of research that could help them.

Have you studied the Bible and theology? I ask because you apparently haven't heard about this thing called the Fall of man. With the Fall of man came death and disease as our punishment.

Regardless, you're saying these little humans, even when just fertilized, aren't real people. How do you qualify what a real person is. I already showed how the verses you use lack any exegetical support for the conclusion you want to make, so how can you even begin to justify it?

If you believe in the Bible and you believe in the soul then the Bible should be your reference guide. It's obvious from scripture that "ensoulment" does not occur at the moment of conception.

LOL

Are you crazy? Where in scripture does it even come close to saying this?

"And ye shalt knoweith that the soul only entereth the body in the third trimester."

It seems to me that this issue is one of those where science and scripture are in sync with each other;

This issue isn't a scientific one but a philosophical one. Thus, it's a matter of the Bible versus worldly philosophies. Just because science can do it doesn't mean it is ethical. Instead, philosophers dictate this issue on debating when human life truly occurs. As Christians, because we believe in the soul and a sovereign God, we know that it begins at conception properly, with God knowing each person before they are even conceived.

You, of course, have not studied this issue at all. I have raised multiple objections against your points and you have ignored them...all for emotional appeal. Again, it's all based on faulty logic...and yes, Nazi ideology.

As for "playing God," it is a great misnomer. None of us can "play God" because we can't actually cure anything. Though we can give flu shots and the like, there is pain involved in the healing process. With all healing processes made by man, there is a risk involved, thus it is not "playing God" at all. Instead, we are using our minds for good. At the same time, when this research and cure comes at the cost of another human life (that did not willingly offer up his or her life) then we have stepped into unethical realms.

What if we deemed "human" to be those with full cognitive thought, free of major mental disabilities? That is, they can live and function on their own without medication. This, of course, is a "legitimate" view of when humanity truly occurs (and is held to by Peter Singer). If we hold to this view then we must admit that it's okay to kill people who are so severely disabled that they cannot help themselves, so long as its for scientific research. Think about it, helping these people costs money and we could use their deformities for study, to see how to prevent or cure further deformities. What a wonderful thing!

You may say, "But that's not what I'm arguing." You're right, however, your philosophical stance has no "stop button." That is to say, if you argue that life doesn't begin at conception, you lose Biblical ground to say when life begins. In the Bible, the punishment for hitting a woman, thus causing her to have a miscarriage was death...just hitting a pregnant woman would cause you to have to pay a penalty that the husband saw fit. The Bible has seen life beginning from conception. If you say it doesn't, then you have to tell us when life begins...and it has to fit with all of scripture (which, any other definition outside of "conception" will not be able to do this).

[Hypathia]

Rebekah - I was referring to those who are trying to thward embryonic-stem cell research. I wasn't trying to attack you personally at all.

Apotho - Your posts have been dripping with EGO, sarcasm, personal attacks, inaccuracies, inappropriate emotional appeals {emotional appeal being something you contantly critisize in others}, and attempts to derail this thread all around. You couldn't debate any issue I think without resorting to these methods and that's not "debate" at all. There's really nothing left to debate anyway. I think we've pretty much covered everything.

I'll just end by referring people back to the scriptures and summing up the links I've provided:

Scriptures most easily read on this post

Post #2

Many articles pro and con

Read, ponder, pray!

[apothanein kerdos]

Rebekah - I was referring to those who are trying to thward embryonic-stem cell research. I wasn't trying to attack you personally at all.

Apotho - Your posts have been dripping with EGO, sarcasm, personal attacks, inaccuracies, inappropriate emotional appeals {emotional appeal being something you contantly critisize in others}, and attempts to derail this thread all around. You couldn't debate any issue I think without resorting to these methods and that's not "debate" at all. There's really nothing left to debate anyway. I think we've pretty much covered everything.

I'll just end by referring people back to the scriptures and summing up the links I've provided:

Scriptures most easily read on this post

Post #2

Many articles pro and con

Read, ponder, pray!

Which should read:

"I can't respond to what you're saying, so I'll attack you. HAHA"

[Hypathia]

Which should read:

"I can't respond to what you're saying, so I'll attack you. HAHA"

Actually it means you're very immature; and once again you demonstrate your overinflated ego.