Floatingaxe Posted May 18, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted May 18, 2007 I understand and completely agree with everything you just said. You need to read my post more carefully. I said someone needs to have a good "foundation" for their beliefs. If they have no reason to believe that God can exist, then they will have a very difficult time in accepting God's salvation. I believe that their are some convincing arguments for God's existence. If it weren't logical to believe in God, I certainly wouldn't. I'm a skeptic by nature, and I needed some evidence. Well, God gave me the evidence, and it allowed me to open my heart to Him. I wasn't disagreeing, brother... I totally agree there is good evidence and foundation is crucial. What I was commenting on pertains to the type of folks I've been debating for years on atheist and philosophy slanted boards. Believe me, these guys are clamped down tighter than a toddler and his "binkey". And while I agree with scripture on having a ready defense to give an account, the rulebook they use for debate excludes the spiritual, supernatural, and metaphysical. I'm certain it's intentional without them even being aware. The scripture does say that the lost have been blinded. My only point was that removing the blindness is a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit triggered by the power of God's word. It's not a case I can make based entirely on intellectualism. I think where logic can play a part is when the Spirit is at work in a person and they begin to see things from God's POV. For example, if I asked you, now that you're born again, how differently you see things as a believer, you would obviously find the truth of scripture to be logical whereas at one time it appeared to be illogical. Good 'un! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
systemstrike_7 Posted May 18, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 540 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/04/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/07/1987 Share Posted May 18, 2007 I understand and completely agree with everything you just said. You need to read my post more carefully. I said someone needs to have a good "foundation" for their beliefs. If they have no reason to believe that God can exist, then they will have a very difficult time in accepting God's salvation. I believe that their are some convincing arguments for God's existence. If it weren't logical to believe in God, I certainly wouldn't. I'm a skeptic by nature, and I needed some evidence. Well, God gave me the evidence, and it allowed me to open my heart to Him. I wasn't disagreeing, brother... I totally agree there is good evidence and foundation is crucial. What I was commenting on pertains to the type of folks I've been debating for years on atheist and philosophy slanted boards. Believe me, these guys are clamped down tighter than a toddler and his "binkey". And while I agree with scripture on having a ready defense to give an account, the rulebook they use for debate excludes the spiritual, supernatural, and metaphysical. I'm certain it's intentional without them even being aware. The scripture does say that the lost have been blinded. My only point was that removing the blindness is a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit triggered by the power of God's word. It's not a case I can make based entirely on intellectualism. I think where logic can play a part is when the Spirit is at work in a person and they begin to see things from God's POV. For example, if I asked you, now that you're born again, how differently you see things as a believer, you would obviously find the truth of scripture to be logical whereas at one time it appeared to be illogical. Ok, I understand now. Please accept my apology, I guess I got excited and wrote hastily. But yes, we are in agreement. And as to your last statement, you are very correct. It was one of the infallible proofs that God provided me with. After I gave up my pride and began to believe, scripture was opened up to me and I saw the Bible in a completely different light. It was astonishing, definitly one of the happiest moments of my life. Ever since the beginning of high school, all I wanted was to have a better understanding of the Bible, whether I was a believer or not. Well, God rewarded me and it was the perfect reward! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akiko Posted May 19, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 211 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/04/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/14/2006 Share Posted May 19, 2007 A Missionary My only point was that removing the blindness is a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit triggered by the power of God's word. It's not a case I can make based entirely on intellectualism. I think where logic can play a part is when the Spirit is at work in a person and they begin to see things from God's POV. Great thought. We all need to read that one over a few times. *agrees* Very well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColleenLovesMischief Posted May 19, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,791 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/21/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/13/1977 Share Posted May 19, 2007 "...but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;" 1 Peter 3:15 The key words in here are "defense" and "account." Defense (apologia) is akin to one using logical arguments and physical evidence. Account (logos) refers to a logical belief, a belief based upon evidence. I see 4 keywords in this....You are correct in Defens and account, but are we also not forgetting gentleness and reverence? Many Christians are willing to go into this battle with swords drawn forgetting they are to be gentle...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servus Christi Posted May 29, 2007 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 21 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/24/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 29, 2007 I will begin with a question: Is it POSSIBLE that there is no supernatural being? I'm not saying that is what you believe, I am asking if it is -possible- that you are incorrect? The existence of the monotheistic God of Christianity, is too logical to ignore. i.e. the argument of God's existence uses Theor"ems" and logic, that can not be ignored. Beatus Dei, ave Christos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc49 Posted May 31, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 82 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 498 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/10/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/25/1949 Share Posted May 31, 2007 I will begin with a question: Is it POSSIBLE that there is no supernatural being? I'm not saying that is what you believe, I am asking if it is -possible- that you are incorrect? NO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerioke Posted May 31, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,850 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/11/1911 Share Posted May 31, 2007 From what I've seen, there are no people who don't believe in God but they have a beef with God and deny Himand some even hate Him. In short, I don't believe in atheists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted June 1, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2007 From what I've seen, there are no people who don't believe in God but they have a beef with God and deny Himand some even hate Him. In short, I don't believe in atheists. Good point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anijen Posted June 3, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 7 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/28/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 3, 2007 I will begin with a question: Is it POSSIBLE that there is no supernatural being? I'm not saying that is what you believe, I am asking if it is -possible- that you are incorrect? Is it POSSIBLE that there is no supernatural being? No. Is it possible that I am incorrect? Yes I would like to add; Is it possible that God is incorrect? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kat8585 Posted June 3, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 1,360 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 7,866 Content Per Day: 1.23 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1946 Share Posted June 3, 2007 To me, nature proves the existence of God. I was watching a tv show, and they were saying that even a one-celled animal is so complex that the nucleus of the cell has enough information to fill tons of encyclopedias, and the rest of the cell has enough to fill many more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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