To atheists and agnostics

[apothanein kerdos]

Very fair.

My next question is, how would you handle someone like Marcus Ross? He's a 6 day creationist, but understand the evolutionary theory so well that he can make arguments for it and operate within it?

I don't fit into your original qualities of who you were looking to respond, but I am interested in the topic. I apologize that I don't know the players, like Marcus Ross. Please give us some of his thoughts, on How evolution, the science, can fit into a 6 day creation? I think the creation story itself shows us that creation was a process, I believe guided by God. A process that took time. How do we fit that into a literal six days. Personally I think most "time" references in the Bible are to convey a concept. What is a day to God. The phrase that a day to God is a 1000 years, in my opinion, is not a literal 1000 years either. It is a concept, a message. So I don't think we have to fit it into 6000 years either. But I could be wrong.

Oh, I was using him to point out someone that does believe in a 6 day creation, but also is very knowledgeable in Evolution. He believes in a 6 day creation, but operates (scientifically) under Evolution. Thus, I was wondering how they would respond to someone that believes one way, but is still knowledgeable on evolution.

The NYT had an article about him, and there was even a topic about him. I'll try to search for it sometime today when I have time.

[SaturnV]

Very fair.

My next question is, how would you handle someone like Marcus Ross? He's a 6 day creationist, but understand the evolutionary theory so well that he can make arguments for it and operate within it?

I don't fit into your original qualities of who you were looking to respond, but I am interested in the topic. I apologize that I don't know the players, like Marcus Ross. Please give us some of his thoughts, on How evolution, the science, can fit into a 6 day creation? I think the creation story itself shows us that creation was a process, I believe guided by God. A process that took time. How do we fit that into a literal six days. Personally I think most "time" references in the Bible are to convey a concept. What is a day to God. The phrase that a day to God is a 1000 years, in my opinion, is not a literal 1000 years either. It is a concept, a message. So I don't think we have to fit it into 6000 years either. But I could be wrong.

Oh, I was using him to point out someone that does believe in a 6 day creation, but also is very knowledgeable in Evolution. He believes in a 6 day creation, but operates (scientifically) under Evolution. Thus, I was wondering how they would respond to someone that believes one way, but is still knowledgeable on evolution.

The NYT had an article about him, and there was even a topic about him. I'll try to search for it sometime today when I have time.

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=56085

Hugh Ross would be interesting to listen to, for sure. I haven't heard much of what he has to say on the subject, but I'm quite interested to hear how he works the two together.

[CaritateDei]

This is why I'd rather deal with atheists much more than Christians...

And the logical Christian cries, "AMEN!"

Edited April 17, 2007 by CaritateDei

[Kabowd]

It's sad that I have to agree too. Christians, particularly several on this board, are some of THE most frustrating people in the world to me. Very very few are capable of having an intellectually honest conversation and even fewer can defend what they believe. If you disagree with someone, they get upset and go ballistic on you....or whine and complain and play the "victim". Unfortunately, most atheists tend to be much more respectful, less emotional and use their minds more rationally than believers.

[ted]

That's quite an opinion of Christians there, but there's something to add to the equation: You don't see the hundreds of posts from atheists that we have been forced to delete to due various rule violations, awful and nasty language, rants, insults, and slams.

They are swept from the public view quickly, and for good reason. Then, there are times when the flood gates open (in other words, an atheistic-based web site decides to slam the board in numbers) and then you can see a truly nasty side to them, and for what?

Now then, if we were to allow those posts and posters to remain, you might have a much different opinion, or would at least have to see that they playing field is much closer to 50/50 than you think.

All in all, I'm extremely grateful for our friends here, who do not believe in God, that can remain due to their genuine politeness, intelligence, and refreshing demeanor. They truly are a breath of fresh air compared to what we have to screen out on a daily basis, and very much appreciated.

t.

[apothanein kerdos]

That's quite an opinion of Christians there, but there's something to add to the equation: You don't see the hundreds of posts from atheists that we have been forced to delete to due various rule violations, awful and nasty language, rants, insults, and slams.

They are swept from the public view quickly, and for good reason. Then, there are times when the flood gates open (in other words, an atheistic-based web site decides to slam the board in numbers) and then you can see a truly nasty side to them, and for what?

Now then, if we were to allow those posts and posters to remain, you might have a much different opinion, or would at least have to see that they playing field is much closer to 50/50 than you think.

All in all, I'm extremely grateful for our friends here, who do not believe in God, that can remain due to their genuine politeness, intelligence, and refreshing demeanor. They truly are a breath of fresh air compared to what we have to screen out on a daily basis, and very much appreciated.

t.

Well agreed, there are many atheists that are the mirror images of some Christians. They are just as anti-intellectual.

However, I am not just talking about my experiences on this board when I make that comment. In general, I'd rather deal with atheists than Christians. Not because their behavior is any better, but because when they treat me like dirt, it's expected.

[Kabowd]

That's quite an opinion of Christians there, but there's something to add to the equation: You don't see the hundreds of posts from atheists that we have been forced to delete to due various rule violations, awful and nasty language, rants, insults, and slams.

They are swept from the public view quickly, and for good reason. Then, there are times when the flood gates open (in other words, an atheistic-based web site decides to slam the board in numbers) and then you can see a truly nasty side to them, and for what?

Now then, if we were to allow those posts and posters to remain, you might have a much different opinion, or would at least have to see that they playing field is much closer to 50/50 than you think.

Well, I'm not speaking about the atheists just at this site. In fact, usually they are more cordial in person. I think alot of times on message boards you get some young punks who pop in to stir up trouble..but they aren't really founded in what they believe (whether it be agnosticism or atheism). But I'm not counting those as the people who are genuine, intellectual atheists. For the most part, those that stick around and correspond with believers...when they obey the board rules, they are extremely polite and rational/logical thinkers.

On the other hand, I've had the unfortunate experience of seeing MULTIPLE posts by believers that are so nasty they have to be deleted (or the threads get locked). This happens repeatedly, especially here. Most of the time it's among believers, but I've seen Christians be extremely hateful and rude to non-believers, simply because they won't accept Christianity after 2-3 posts or something. It's like, there is very little grace extended.

The MOST frustrating thing of all though, particularly with regards to this forum...is when Christians come into this area and have zero understanding of how to defend the faith or have a rational conversation with those who are struggling or unbelievers. Repeatedly saying "You'll never understand because you don't have faith!" or "I just believe! That's it!"....that is NOT apologetics. That is NOT having a ready defense. This only makes believers look stupid and make Christianity look like nothing more than believing in the Tooth Fairy. This is what I'm talking about above. It's extremely frustrating to have conversations with believers who have no understanding of biblical Christianity. I'm not trying to come across like I have all the answers...I don't. But I seek to learn from those who do and absorb information like a sponge. When someone who is more educated that I am enlightens me, I take note of it and learn from it. This is what it means to walk with the wise. Unfortunately, what I'm seeing around here more often is the blind leading the blind. That's not to be offensive, I'm just being totally honest about what I see happening around here alot.

[systemstrike_7]

I completely agree. The Christian nation is not lacking in ministry, it is lacking in intelligence. I wish the seminars across the world would stop training preaches and start training scholars. The largest threat to Christianity is the lack of intelligence. You see this in the UK especially. The UK is majorly secular, and still becoming more secular. This is due to the fact that people don't hear the Christian's argument, mainly because Christians don't have one. As William Lane Craig said, "We don't need pastors, we need scholars. Intellectualism is what will convert people in today's age, not fear." (William Lane Craig in Reasonable Faith, 1994).

[apothanein kerdos]

I completely agree. The Christian nation is not lacking in ministry, it is lacking in intelligence. I wish the seminars across the world would stop training preaches and start training scholars. The largest threat to Christianity is the lack of intelligence. You see this in the UK especially. The UK is majorly secular, and still becoming more secular. This is due to the fact that people don't hear the Christian's argument, mainly because Christians don't have one. As William Lane Craig said, "We don't need pastors, we need scholars. Intellectualism is what will convert people in today's age, not fear." (William Lane Craig in Reasonable Faith, 1994).

Funny you should say that...he was in London a few weeks ago giving a series of lectures defending the faith.

[systemstrike_7]

I completely agree. The Christian nation is not lacking in ministry, it is lacking in intelligence. I wish the seminars across the world would stop training preaches and start training scholars. The largest threat to Christianity is the lack of intelligence. You see this in the UK especially. The UK is majorly secular, and still becoming more secular. This is due to the fact that people don't hear the Christian's argument, mainly because Christians don't have one. As William Lane Craig said, "We don't need pastors, we need scholars. Intellectualism is what will convert people in today's age, not fear." (William Lane Craig in Reasonable Faith, 1994).

Funny you should say that...he was in London a few weeks ago giving a series of lectures defending the faith.

I love his material. I don't necessarily agree with all of his logic, but I agree with his mission. His mission is noble and much needed. Christians need to be intellectually grounded in their faith. Jesus certainly was. I think that Christians who just "ride the rollercoaster" are missing out on such an enriched faith....