Split - Faith vs Works

[exrockstar]

Faith alone does not mean a dead faith. Faith of course is not faith if it is dead.

I think some may confuse intellectual belief with faith that may be the communication problem we are having. Because many have some sort of intellectual belief, but do not have faith.

But works without faith are meaningless and are indeed dead. All works done without a faith in Christ are displeasing to God, you cannot please God without faith in His Word, when you don't believe you are calling God a liar and rejecting what He has done for you, how could that ever please God, regardless of what you do for works? We can take the Sacraments all we want, we can be Baptized we can help the poor, if in the end we still do not believe in Christ as our Savior we will have no part in His salvation according to scripture.

Scripture is totally clear we are saved by faith alone, it is spelled out you simply can't get away from the entire book of Galatians or Romans, to not believe in faith alone you almost must throw those books out.

Certainly our works overflow from our faith, a person of true faith cannot help but do works they impel her to attempt to follow Christ and conform herself to Christ.

the mixup with some members here is that they cant seperate the difference between:

1. what actually saves you

2. what is faith

3. what is works

the bible defines them all differently from one another yet people still make them dependant of each other.

someone keeps posting "faith by works is dead..." but they have not taken the time to go read the bible and

write down what saves, what is faith and what is works.

weird times for the church ... 3xR0c|<stAr

i agree that we need to go back to the subject at hand.

Edited April 20, 2007 by exrockstar

[Kansasdad]

You might find this article by John Pacheco interesting,

The bible is replete with passages that testify to the requirement that a Christian 'work out his salvation with fear and trembling' (Cf. Philippians 2:12). The erroneous doctrine of salvation by faith alone is not taught when the bible is read in context. Faith without works is a legal and dead faith, and a legal and dead faith will not save you. Faith is not alone because salvation does not come by faith alone. Salvation comes through the love of God. And love of God involves worshipping Him with your whole being - body and soul. Without loving God and neighbour, there is no salvation for you. It's simple. No love? No salvation. Count on it.

Luke 10:27-29: "And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered right; do this, and you will live."

What must I do to live, Lord? Love God AND Love my neighbour. You love your neighbour through works of Christian charity. See also Matthew 22:39.

Luke 6:46-49: "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you? Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep, and laid the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it had been well built. But he who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation; against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great."

What will happen to YOUR house if you do not DO what Jesus commands? Why indeed to you call him "Lord" and do not do what He tells you? If you are not serving God, then just who are you serving? See also Luke 6:46.

Matthew 7:18-20: "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits."

What happens if you don't bear good fruit? You are thrown into the fire. Does that sound like works are not necessary to you? See also Luke 13:6-9.

Matthew 16:27: "For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done."

What?!? It's not just "clinging on to Christ" or a fiduciary faithin Him? So you think this is just one isolated verse where God's word reveals that he will repay according to works? Think again! - 2 Corinthians 5:10, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:7, 1 Peter 1:17, John 5:29-30, Romans 2:6, Rev. 2:23, 20:12.

Matthew 21:28-31: "What do you think? A man had two sons; and he went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work in the vineyard today.' And he answered, 'I will not'; but afterward he repented and went. And he went to the second and said the same; and he answered, 'I go, sir,' but did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.'"

Did you get that? The Pharisees are the hypocrites. They "believe" in God but do not do His will. The tax collectors originally did not believe, but later did believe and did the Father's will. Compare the eternal fate of the two.

1 Peter 1:6-7:"In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

You may have to suffer trials in life in order to test the AUTHENTICITY of your faith WHICH IS PERISHABLE. You have no irrevocable ticket to heaven. You must choose Christ, and if you fall, you must get back up.

Matthew 25:44-46: "Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

So it appears that Jesus recognizes that a believer *can* refuse Christian charity. Notice that he allows them to say "Lord", but because they "did it not" to the least of his brothers, they were damned.

Luke 1:5-6: "In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah; and he had awife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

What made Zechariah and his family righteous? Was it their 'faith' only. Or was it something more? And speaking of 'righteousness', show me one place in Scripture where someone is "righteousness" without the works to back it up.

Matthew 7:21: "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enterthe kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

How much more plainer can it be? Talk is cheap. Put your action where you faith is, then you can be called sons and daughters of God (Romans 2:13, James 1:22-25, 1 John 3:18,23).

James 2:15-22: "If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled, "without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works

[Floatingaxe]

It is not Satanic. That is silly. It is a very good article!

[exrockstar]

that article seems Satanic. who is that? ... 3xR0c|<stAr

Your comment seems Satanic................... Now does a comment like that serve any purpose or accomplish anything

Did you write that article? dont take it personal. author is astraying from what salvation is. See my post above about him knowing the difference. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

Edited April 20, 2007 by exrockstar

[Kansasdad]

that article seems Satanic. who is that? ... 3xR0c|<stAr

Your comment seems Satanic................... Now does a comment like that serve any purpose or accomplish anything

Did you write that article? dont take it personal. author is astraying from what salvation is. See my post above about him knowing the difference. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

No I didn't write the article, but your comment was still a worthless comment, and no the Author did not stray from what salvation is. That is nothing more than a stated opinion. Care to elaborate on the verses and comments he provided specifically?

[Kansasdad]

It is not Satanic. That is silly. It is a very good article!

WOW we finally agreed on something This is really exciting.......really!!!!!!

Thanks,

K.D.

[Eliyahuw]

notice how he never said you are not saved and are going to hell?

what he is saying that you should display by deeds that you have faith.

You see, because salvation is a gift of God from Him to you then you don't really know if you are saved (Eph 2:8-9).

You don't and that is the flat honest truth.

But by faith you feel that you are so you display that by deeds/works.

Your works don't depend on your salvation. However, your works give you confidence and assurance that you are doing things

as one of God's children.

reading the bible many times didnt leave you with that impression?

you just disregarded tons of scripture that doesnt agree with your position. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

I don't know about that. might i suggest that if you do not know your saved that you are probably not saved?? I know without a shadow of a doubt and have known from the second i accepted christ that i was and forevermore saved.

First of all, i claimed his promies.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Jhn 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I can go on and on and on with his promises. So yeah I know for a fact without a shadow of a doubt I am saved by my accepting Gods Gift of salvation. Gods real big on contracts you know, he made one with us. IF we just accept his gift, we will have eternal life, and that contract was signed and sealed in blood.

[Eliyahuw]

Faith without works is dead. Only if we do the will of the father in heaven will we GET to heaven. A famous guy said that...his name was Jesus.

You are unable to respond, so you say, "Oh, you jumbled scripture." Is Paul and James, and Peter, and Jesus...Are they all fulla bologna?

Paul taught faith then works.

james taught works are a result of faith.

No where in any of these epistles is Salvation a result of works.

Salvation is a Gift, no strings attached. You just have to accept it.

Salvation is brought about by Faith, through the act of Grace (God's forgiving mercy (Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:5). Salavation is NOT done by works whatsoever because if it were, man could say he saved himself if he worked his way into heaven.

Works are nothing more than a result of the combination of faith and grace.

[Floatingaxe]

notice how he never said you are not saved and are going to hell?

what he is saying that you should display by deeds that you have faith.

You see, because salvation is a gift of God from Him to you then you don't really know if you are saved (Eph 2:8-9).

You don't and that is the flat honest truth.

But by faith you feel that you are so you display that by deeds/works.

Your works don't depend on your salvation. However, your works give you confidence and assurance that you are doing things

as one of God's children.

reading the bible many times didnt leave you with that impression?

you just disregarded tons of scripture that doesnt agree with your position. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

I don't know about that. might i suggest that if you do not know your saved that you are probably not saved?? I know without a shadow of a doubt and have known from the second i accepted christ that i was and forevermore saved.

First of all, i claimed his promies.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Jhn 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I can go on and on and on with his promises. So yeah I know for a fact without a shadow of a doubt I am saved by my accepting Gods Gift of salvation. Gods real big on contracts you know, he made one with us. IF we just accept his gift, we will have eternal life, and that contract was signed and sealed in blood.

Amen, brother!

Works borne from faith are a natural outflow of that faith! You can't conspire to perform works to build any confidence that you are one of God's children...that confidence comes from the faith in the promises of God--what He tells us! If one feels that he must perform to show himself approved, then he is barking up the wrong tree.

[Eliyahuw]

Scripture is totally clear we are saved by faith alone, it is spelled out you simply can't get away from the entire book of Galatians or Romans, to not believe in faith alone you almost must throw those books out.

I am sorry but that is not true either. we cannot be saved by faith alone.

We are saved BY FAITH, THROUGH GRACE (God's forgiving mercy (Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:5).

thats the only way we can be saved. Faith alone is not enough but with Grace it is all that is needed. Works do NOTHING to save us.