Split - Faith vs Works

[Kansasdad]

That is the key Kansas, what is faith, saving faith what does it really mean?

This is what we are really kind of arguing about, not whether faith itself is needed; we all agree that it is. There are some theological arguments that I frankly find rather confusing about what we really mean by mixing works or adding works to faith, but it seems to me that we all basically believe that works overflow from faith and as you say are a measure of the faith that we have. In fact our works help give us peace and comfort as they assure our hearts of our faith. Faith cannot be a function of intellectual capacity for example.

On the other hand, I do think we really hurt ourselves by living in a constant state of fear about measuring works, have I done enough how much will save me, and on and on, because we know it never is enough to save us really, then works become an obligation a sort of check mark that once works xyz are done I can relax, and we can look at other people and say ha they don't make the grade because they didn't do works xy and z, when really if we have faith we won't look at works in that way.

It is a hard topic I think.

I think you are correct in that satan will use guilt and pride to keep one away from God. But I also think it is good to always strive to grow and do more.

[Kansasdad]

The key question that should be asked is not if there if both faith and works play a part in salvation. They do. They question is what is the nature of the relationship.

In other words we would all agree that faith is a cause of salvation. The question is are works a cause of salvation, or an expected result of salvation.

I don't think anyone has said that works cause salvation. But I also don't think works is a result of salvation either. Works is believing and trusting in Jesus so much that you do what he tells you to do. If you are not doing what he tells you to do then you really are not trusting in him. So what kind of faith do you have?

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[Kansasdad]

Don't worry about Ole, K.D God has me covered! I found it quite interesting how you jump to a conclusion that dead faith will still get you into heaven. Statements like that make we wonder just how new to the bible you are? The article posted above has over 2000 years of study and understanding behind it, but I am sure your few decades is more than adequate. By the way, we will all be judged.

dead faith does not equal to zero.

Besides I am not the only one that stands by this. I believe in grace and not "works for salvation."

FloatingAxe, is it fair to say that Bema is for believers and white throne is for non-believers? ... 3xR0c|<stAr

Please go back to scripture and tell me what God says will happen to those that have dead faith?

[Floatingaxe]

Yes, concious obedience, BUT also works that are out of our new nature in Christ, because we are new creatures. These works are now natural, and done through us BY Christ.

It's called Fruit. Acts done that reveal love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, kindness and self-control. Not conjured-up works, but natural outflows of our new natures in Jesus.

[exrockstar]

Yes, concious obedience, BUT also works that are out of our new nature in Christ, because we are new creatures. These works are now natural, and done through us BY Christ.

It's called Fruit. Acts done that reveal love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, kindness and self-control. Not conjured-up works, but natural outflows of our new natures in Jesus.

please let scripture stand on its own.

can you please post what the bible has to say about the Bema seat (where rewards will be distrubuted)? ... 3xR0c|<stAr

and KD, do you believe in the Bema seat? I can't say that I've ever heard some churches talk about that so Im not sure if yours teaching about that.

Edited April 23, 2007 by exrockstar

[Kansasdad]

Yes, concious obedience, BUT also works that are out of our new nature in Christ, because we are new creatures. These works are now natural, and done through us BY Christ.

It's called Fruit. Acts done that reveal love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, kindness and self-control. Not conjured-up works, but natural outflows of our new natures in Jesus.

[Floatingaxe]

FloatingAxe, is it fair to say that Bema is for believers and white throne is for non-believers?

Yep.

[exrockstar]

FloatingAxe, is it fair to say that Bema is for believers and white throne is for non-believers?

Yep.

well well well.... ... 3xR0c|<stAr

[EricH]

The key question that should be asked is not if there if both faith and works play a part in salvation. They do. They question is what is the nature of the relationship.

In other words we would all agree that faith is a cause of salvation. The question is are works a cause of salvation, or an expected result of salvation.

I don't think anyone has said that works cause salvation. But I also don't think works is a result of salvation either. Works is believing and trusting in Jesus so much that you do what he tells you to do. If you are not doing what he tells you to do then you really are not trusting in him. So what kind of faith do you have?

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

Which seems to me to imply that they are an outgrowth of salvation, they do not cause it. Several passages tell us that one of the results of salvation is both the desire and ability to perform works that are pleasing to God. Before salvation we have neither the desire, or the ability to please Him

[Eliyahuw]

Smalcald,

Scripture is totally clear we are saved by faith alone, it is spelled out you simply can't get away from the entire book of Galatians or Romans, to not believe in faith alone you almost must throw those books out.

I am surprised to see you say this.

We are saved by Grace through faith. We are justified by faith, but we are not saved by faith. But we are saved THROUGH faith. The Book of James is an manual of christian liviing through faith.

We are created for good works. Eph 1:10. We will be judged by our works. It is the works that gives evidence of our faith. Faith and works cannot be separated in the NT. They are really synonomous. Rev 20:12. Then again in Rev 22:12. I don't see faith written there. Paul also confirms this is Rom 2:6, II Cor 5:10.

Sorry there thaddaeus, the works are a by product of salvation, not the other way around. Works has nothing to do with salvation whatsoever.