Purgatory...defend this false doctrine!

[Kansasdad]

KD,

There are no Scriptures that allude to any such places. What is happening is that your early teaching has influenced how you read the scriptures.

Where others haver had a cloudy understanding, they have filled in the "gaps" of their understanding with faulty thinking. It has become a doctrine to many, and is a major hindrance to the clarity of mind that the Holy Spirit labours to give us.

We can go over these Scriptures that are in question throughout this thread if you wish. I am at work for the next 3 hours and am not at too much liberty to search the Scriptures, but I will do what I can, as well as anyone else here who is up to the task.

Are you willing to hear what the Word of God really is saying to us, KD?

If not, then I won't waste my time, and no offense is taken.

I am always open to the message of scripture, it is never a waste of time. Keep in mind the exact same question can be asked of you. Your vision has been influenced by many others and gaps can be filled with faulty thinking. Are you open to seeing what is actually written in scripture, even if it challenges the doctrines you hold. If not, then I won't waste my time either, and no offense will be taken.

[Floatingaxe]

KD,

There are no Scriptures that allude to any such places. What is happening is that your early teaching has influenced how you read the scriptures.

Where others haver had a cloudy understanding, they have filled in the "gaps" of their understanding with faulty thinking. It has become a doctrine to many, and is a major hindrance to the clarity of mind that the Holy Spirit labours to give us.

We can go over these Scriptures that are in question throughout this thread if you wish. I am at work for the next 3 hours and am not at too much liberty to search the Scriptures, but I will do what I can, as well as anyone else here who is up to the task.

Are you willing to hear what the Word of God really is saying to us, KD?

If not, then I won't waste my time, and no offense is taken.

I am always open to the message of scripture, it is never a waste of time. Keep in mind the exact same question can be asked of you. Your vision has been influenced by many others and gaps can be filled with faulty thinking. Are you open to seeing what is actually written in scripture, even if it challenges the doctrines you hold. If not, then I won't waste my time either, and no offense will be taken.

Absolutely, as God is my eye-opener!

[Kansasdad]

Matthew 12:32

"Whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come."

If Jesus forgave all of our sins by his death and resurrection and we need no other cleansing for salvation, why does he give the implication that some sins can be forgiven in the next world? Those in hell cannot be forgiven. Those in heaven NEED not be forgiven. Where does this remission of sin come from? A purification the soul must endure to enter heaven.

the Matthew scripture says "age" and you are talking about "worlds."

When Christ said this it was age of the law, the age to come was "grace" and it started at Pentecost.

What made you decide to conclude it was life and afterlife?

we may have to look this up in greek? ... 3xR0c|<stAr

I stand corrected. Ages = time to come = dispensation

Hebrews 1:2 says "Hebrews 1

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds (ages);

the age Christ was talking about was not a life and afterlife as Kansasdad explains. It is the world, or age, of grace.

good old Strong's and companion bible usually clears up misleading information some people give.

goodnight all. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

Hey this is good!

I should have known better, I got lazy and didn't do the research. Sorry but here is the interpretation from the Greek.

Matt. 12:32

[Kansasdad]

But as I said this is not based on one particulare verse. It has its roots in several. Here they are.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead

[Floatingaxe]

OK, first things first:

Luke 12:43-48...

"Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.

"Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. "But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

"And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

This is a pretty straightforward parable about how we are responsible for what we have been given by God. As God finds us faithful, so will our rewards be divvied out.

Nothing here about any in-between place. When Christ comes and we are standing before Him, we are judged according to what we have done with our opportunities for Him, and the spreading of the gospel, etc. Those who are loyal to the Lord, and maintain their gifts by using them, and are obedient to the call on their lives will receive a great reward. People who disobey and not love will be dealt with harshly as unbelievers, and will not find a home in heaven, but rather Hell.

Immature, baby Christians who are just learning how to serve the Lord, will not be held to the same standard. It just goes to demonstrate how the rewards will not all be equal.

[exrockstar]

I should have known better, I got lazy and didn't do the research. Sorry but here is the interpretation from the Greek.

Matt. 12:32

Edited April 25, 2007 by exrockstar

[Floatingaxe]

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"

Hades (also called "hell" and "sheol") is simply the waiting place for those who have died without Christ. It is not purgatory. It is not the place of punishment, as God has not punished anyone yet.

This parable serves to show how there is such a great impassable gulf between the place where the redeemed go and the place where the lost go.

[Floatingaxe]

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

This one is easy. "Under the earth refers to hell." Are you forgetting that EVERY knee shall bow to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords? EVERYONE--redeemed and the lost.

There is no such place as Purgatory.

Philippians 2:10...

9-11Because of that obedience, God lifted him high and honored him far beyond anyone or anything, ever, so that all created beings in heaven and on earth

[Floatingaxe]

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Genesis 50:10...

Then they came to the threshing floor of Atad, which is beyond the Jordan, and they mourned there with a great and very solemn lamentation. He observed seven days of mourning for his father.

Numbers 20:29

Now when all the congregation saw that Aaron was dead, all the house of Israel mourned for Aaron thirty days.

Deuteronomy 34:8...

And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days. So the days of weeping and mourning for Moses ended.

That is absolutely false. These scriptures refer only to mourning. There was no such Jewish understanding of the purification of the dead! That is pure and simple heresy.

[CaritateDei]

Wow! How far off the mark.

So the blood of Jesus is incapable of cleansing us from all sin? Believing that lie will get you into a lot of trouble one Day.

Here is the problem. You do not respond to a single point I made. You just say, "You're wrong, I'm right."

I have quoted the Bible. The Bible is quite clear that no one is assured of salvation. What is so harmful about purgatory?

Hi CaritateDei,

It's not a question of "Im right" and "your wrong", it's a question concerning the interpretations of the verses quoted to support purgatory. In all actuality support for purgatory originated from the Apocrypha and not from scripture, although some are hard pressed to use scriptural verses such as Isaiah 4:4, Micah 7:8, Zecharia 9:11, Malachai 3:2, 1Cor. 3:13-17 and 1Cor. 15:29 these verses in no way exegetically define a doctrine of purgatory.

The doctrine of Purgatory is founded from 2nd Maccabees 12:41-45, which in the case if you have never owned any other Bible than a Catholic one, none of the KJV, NIV, ASB versions etc. have the 1st and 2nd Maccabees books of the Apocrypha.

IIMaccabees 12:41-45

All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous judge who had opened the things that were hid betook themselves to prayer and besought him that a sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides that noble Judah exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin for so much as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain. And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachmas of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering doing therein very well and honestly in that he was mindful of the resurrection. For if he had not hoped that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluousand vain to pray for the dead. And also in that he perceived that there was great favor laid up for those that died Godly, it was a holy and good though whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead that they might be delivered from sin.

In any case each and every one of the verses quoted makes a reference to righteousness and all righteousness comes through the blood of Christ and the position of Purgatory implies that Christ's blood alone is not good enough to enter heaven. Verse 43 teaches that the two thousand drachmas is a "Sin Offering". There is no other means of atonement for sin other than the blood of Christ, going back as far as Cain and Able, even then God would only accept a blood sacrifice and is why he became disappointed in Cain's sin offering from the works of the land. It was not a blood sacrifice and the doctrine of Purgatory teaches the way of Cain that you can "Buy" your way out of a sin, no one can buy their way out of sin they themselves must be purchased by the blood of Christ not the other way around.

Peace

CJ

No one buys their way out of sin through purgatory.

Let me ask everyone this - MOST ESPECIALLY everyone who claims to be saved...or who is saved...what have you...

Is it fair or just, as C.S. Lewis speaks, to enter the perfect kingdom of heaven with sinfulness that we have?

The Blood of Jesus redeemed us...without him there is no possibility of entering heaven.

No one here can judge who is in heaven or who is in hell. No matter what insight you may think that you have, no one here can be absolutely certain who is in hell or who is not.

We cry out constantly that we are sinners and thank God for his sacrifices.

Should we not be cleansed of all sins before we enter the perfect heaven?

I think C.S. Lewis (by the way...he was not Catholic) is onto something.

So too is Samuel Johnson. Also not a Catholic.