Never get a consistant answer

[MK202002]

Thank you everyone for responding, your multiple insights really help.

A few nights ago at a Bible study we were talking about this authority teaching. It can have adverse affects, I think. Parts of it are true, but how I've heard people explain it leaves everything wide open to interpretation.

This is the normal verse that is included:

Ephesians 6:12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

But I'm not fighting any demonic forces here, as one of you pointed out; demons are not keeping him in prison, the Department of Corrections is.

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. (assuming this means like government institutions and such.

So the question I brought up at this bible study was: How do demonic forces manifest themself? Because if we knew that we could know what was from God and what was an "attack of the devil" I personally think we give Satan way to much credit as far as being able to hurt us.

Does anyone know where any of these ideas come from? They put so much reponsibility on a person. I think the 'authority teaching' will be short lived in the church.

Right before my husband was sentance, our pastor preached a message on telling mountains to move out of our way. I'm not blaming him for tripping me up, but some of the teaching could be taken totally wrong. Or it simply is totally wrong. What do you think?

[Guest angel a]

TRUST. TRUST. TRUST. Never quit trusting HIM. You and i will always have tests and trials, and so much more as we see the day approaching. TRUST HIM ALONE.

[MK202002]

TRUST. TRUST. TRUST. Never quit trusting HIM. You and i will always have tests and trials, and so much more as we see the day approaching. TRUST HIM ALONE.

Amen. thank you. That's another fishy thing about this teaching on authority. You move some of the trust into your own abilities and understanding. Like results based prayer;if you prayed and it didn't happen, the problem is you, because God promised us everything we want in prayer. (uh-huh) Even when there is no problem at all, you just need to trust God and ride it though.

[MK202002]

Hi MK! I'm so sorry to hear about your struggles.

I guess I'm not real sure what you're asking, though. Are you asking how to respond to your husband's prison sentence? Or your disappointed expectations? Or the "beliefs" you talked about? Or maybe all of them!

I think you're very right about one thing: satan certainly does have his claws in there. He comes to steal, kill, and destroy, and if he can get you to start doubting God and yourself, he's gotten a foothold. I think there are a lot of people out there who think they hear things from God, when it's not actually God doing the talking. I know sometimes if I want something badly enough, I can convince myself that God said it was okay, when God was saying nothing of the sort! But broken expectations can be one of our biggest downfalls. It's very easy to get discouraged when the unexpected happens instead of the expected. How do you respond? By finding all the Scripture you can that says to trust God. Psalm 119:68 might be a good place for you to start: You are good and do good; teach me Your statutes. Trust that God is in control, and if it would have been best for you that your husband came home, your husband would have come home. Since he didn't, you can know that wasn't the best thing for you in this situation. He's your Father, and He's not going to "yank your chain." Respond with trust.

Not everything bad that happens is because demons are doing it. WE don't have control; God does. Respond by looking truthfully at the situation. What kind of demon made it so your husband couldn't come home? No demon. The truth in this will set you free from the "guilt" bondage.

Will God teach you something in this? Absolutely! He teaches us stuff every day of our lives--through the good and the bad. Like Iryssa said, Romans 8:28 is good. But I was told, and I believe, one should never quote Romans 8:28 without quoting verse 29 with it. All things work to conform us to the image of Jesus Christ. God doesn't cause things to work out to give us a happy-ever-after-ending; He causes things to work out to make us like His Son. And that, my friend, is a VERY good thing!

I'm not convinced we are to worry about what it is God is trying to teach us. A first grader doesn't worry about what he's supposed to learn in school; he just absorbs and it happens. I think maybe that's what we're to do. Absorb Him, and the lesson He has for you will become clear.

I hope this helps a little. I surely do feel for you. Yes, God forgives all our sins, but He doesn't wipe away the consequences for them. Too bad, huh! I pray you find His peace in your situation.

awesome, thank you. yeah, like a first grader still in the first grade trying to understand calculus.

[exrockstar]

So the question I brought up at this bible study was: How do demonic forces manifest themself? Because if we knew that we could know what was from God and what was an "attack of the devil" I personally think we give Satan way to much credit as far as being able to hurt us.

i think everyone is going to give you different responses to this but I will tell you what I believe. if it's interesting enough

for you then I would be more than happy to explain further.

demonic forces are generally influential. they will not lift your hands to do evil things.

they will not put actions in your body (unless your possessed but thats something else).

You have a sin nature within you that you wrestle with every day of your life.

Generally they mess with society as a whole.

False doctrine that shows up....demonic.

False teachings.....demonic.

They find "lost scrolls ina desert" that says Jesus did so-so which contradicts the bible....demonic.

Demons or fallen angels have an agenda. It's not that they want you to sin because we all sin.

They DISTRACT anyone from accepting the word of God.

Does a demon or Satan personally visit you?

I can answer that but i dont even know if my first part caught your attention. lol ... 3xR0c|<stAr

[roselady]

To make things simple, I'll come right out with my personal business. And I promise not to hold a grudge if one of you says something insensitive but 'true'. Tell me what you think:

The deal: Three years ago before he was saved my husband committed a couple of crimes. After he was arrested, he genuinly came to Christ (he did, it stuck).

One year ago they finally got around to sentancing him. Make a long story short, he has four more years to go till he comes home.

The damage: I thought he was going to get off with probation. Not because he was good, not because he didn't deserve it, but because I believed God was telling me he would. So this shattering of nievity has caused me to attempt to synthesize everthing back together, and the devil's got his claws in the job.

Stumbling blocks:

*The 'authrity teaching' floating around in my church. We are to take authority and abolish all demonic forces. This put 100% of the responsibility on us. If something bad happens, we should have been able to beat it, we;ve been given the power, etc.

*The 'trials and tribulations' teaching. God puts us through trials for our strenthening. Bad things happen for a believer's good.

* The "God's discipline' or 'natural consequenses' idea. ok, he is our father, but how do we know what he wants us to learn?

So those are three schools of thought I encounter, either in myself or in others when I try to process through this and understand it. They affect how a person views tragetys in others and in themselfves. They are very important. And I am freaking out because I have no idea how God wants me to take this!!

Do I think that I am so perfect as to never have hard times in my life? No, of course not.

Yes, I know there are people out there who suffer so much more than I ever dreamed, and I respect that, but it doesn't answer my questions, only enhance them.

And please don't simplify the dilemma to 'why do bad things happen to me'. I don't care if they happen, I just need to know how to respond.

Sweetie,

Listen up OK? There is ALWAYS forgiveness. The Father loves each and everyone of his creation. Now with that being said, he is also a stickler for his laws and wont violate one of them, it would not be very God like to set up laws then break them all ya know? So thats where dicipline comes in. Sometimes when we do something we ought not, there is dicipline that goes along with it. It helps grow up, trial by fire, twice refined. Faith will carry you through your trial. Just look up honey, God love you and yours.

Also, theres mans laws, God usually wont violate one of them UNLESS it goes against his Laws. If so, then God will do what God wills. After all He is God ya know?

Chin up, you will get thru this, somehow I know that to be true.

Rose Lady

[MK202002]

To make things simple, I'll come right out with my personal business. And I promise not to hold a grudge if one of you says something insensitive but 'true'. Tell me what you think:

The deal: Three years ago before he was saved my husband committed a couple of crimes. After he was arrested, he genuinly came to Christ (he did, it stuck).

One year ago they finally got around to sentancing him. Make a long story short, he has four more years to go till he comes home.

The damage: I thought he was going to get off with probation. Not because he was good, not because he didn't deserve it, but because I believed God was telling me he would. So this shattering of nievity has caused me to attempt to synthesize everthing back together, and the devil's got his claws in the job.

Stumbling blocks:

*The 'authrity teaching' floating around in my church. We are to take authority and abolish all demonic forces. This put 100% of the responsibility on us. If something bad happens, we should have been able to beat it, we;ve been given the power, etc.

*The 'trials and tribulations' teaching. God puts us through trials for our strenthening. Bad things happen for a believer's good.

* The "God's discipline' or 'natural consequenses' idea. ok, he is our father, but how do we know what he wants us to learn?

So those are three schools of thought I encounter, either in myself or in others when I try to process through this and understand it. They affect how a person views tragetys in others and in themselfves. They are very important. And I am freaking out because I have no idea how God wants me to take this!!

Do I think that I am so perfect as to never have hard times in my life? No, of course not.

Yes, I know there are people out there who suffer so much more than I ever dreamed, and I respect that, but it doesn't answer my questions, only enhance them.

And please don't simplify the dilemma to 'why do bad things happen to me'. I don't care if they happen, I just need to know how to respond.

We must realize that as believers we do possess absolute authority over Satan and his forces. We were given this authority by Jesus. You must take into account that this authority operates based on laws which God set forth. Our authority and dominion over Satan can not be turned on and off at will. Your husband has free will. He is a free moral agent. He exercised his free will. He committed crime. Now, even though he is saved, he must pay the price that society dictates. God forgives, the state does not. (as a rule) Your husband set events into motion that must run their course. In the eyes of God he is righteous, in the eyes of the State he is a criminal. Even though he has repented, he still owes a debt to society. It is actually unjust if he does not pay that debt. I am sure the crime had a victim of some type. If your husband were to escape punishment, then the victim would be hurt.

I remember Kenneth Haggin telling a story about pick handles. During the great depression, two men purchased a pickup truck load of pick handles. The handles were turned, but yet to be sealed. This load of handles was worth over a years wages to the men. They brought the handles home and noticed it looked like rain. They debated parking the truck in the barn but decided to pray protection over the handles instead. It rained. The handles became warped and they lost a years wages. The men were crushed. They asked God why. They reminded God that they had trusted him to protect the handles. They heard no answer from God and became bitter. They saw brother Haggin and recounted the story to him. They asked him why their faith had not worked. He told them they had mistaken foolishness for faith. He said God showed you that it was going to rain. The fact that you were too lazy to open the barn doors and drive the truck in was your own fault.

Sometimes binding, loosing, and taking authority is so misguided it is foolishness in practice. To avoid prison time, you hire the best lawyer, get letters from important people, and talk to people who can make a difference in the sentence. The way to keep someone out of prison is hire the right attorney. Get someone who has clout to pressure the D.A. Get someone who has clout to pressure the judge. You would be amazed what someone properly connected can do. I am not talking about rich people either. I am talking about people who can pull large numbers of votes. People who have pulled large numbers of votes. Get the victim to request leniency. As a police officer, I can promise you that the court sees religious conversion as a ploy. You would not believe how many people get saved right after they get arrested. Then, they get saved again the next time they get arrested. Then, they get saved again the next time they get arrested. Then they have a jail ministry. Then they get out and get arrested again. It is sickening really. Some people change. Unfortunately, the ones who use religious conversion as a means to try to escape punishment ruin it for the select few who truly change.

this really isn't about my husband getting off scott free, but more of my understanding of the situation from a spiritual perspective. I'm letting him deal with his own questions.

I generally do not like cops, but how in the world am I supposed find a lawyer with 'clout' over a court? A lawyer will certainly tell you that he has influence over a court, if you seem interested in hiring them. Are you aware that these people lie?

And they were two-non violent class D felonies. He was connected to a case that had a victem, but he was not charged with anything violent.

Another thing that is sickening is cops who say they are christians and have no quams lying, planting, being overly aggressive, and breaking the law to help others build a case. And they ruin any trust that might exist between another cop with integrity and the public.

[Guest]

Sorry to hear that things didn't go as you had hoped.

I've seen some great stories on this thread, and testimonies about how God uses things in our lives to touch others. This is something you probably won't understand for awhile. Trials are like that -- rather like not being able to see the forest for all the darn trees. Once the trial is over is when some understanding comes, but not always. I say this because of the situation I have in my own life.

I got away from the Lord for quite a few years, got into drugs, and did some things that I'm not proud of -- and which could have resulted in a LONG prison sentence had I been caught back then, or maybe I would have wound up dead. I don't know, but I do know this: I made a mess of my life. The Lord got me to a place where I couldn't run any more when I "crash landed" at a mission here in Phoenix. I had lost everything I owned, and showed up with a toothbrush, razor, and a spare T-shirt + what I was wearing. There were no more options, no place else to run to. So, the Lord got my attention. I listened this time, got into the word, church, and all.

Now after the Lord getting my attention I've been sober for 5 years, employed for 4 with the same company, and still don't own a car in a city where you need one real bad. I still can't pay the debts left over from the "crash and burn", and I suppose that someone looking at my life from the outside might say my life is going nowhere. (World's view of things.) I don't understand this, but I have peace in my heart that Jesus knows what he's doing. I've tried getting other jobs and all the rest and it can be frustrating, not to mention infuriating sometimes. It can feel like your in a cell, or at least trapped in a corner with no way out. Each time there seems to be a "way out" the door has slammed in my face.

How to deal with it? LOTS of prayer and Bible Study. The more time you spend in the Word, the more the Holy Spirit has to work with to help you through this. I won't make it sound like one of those "victory 'til you throw up" preachers you see on tv. I have good days -- and I have some that are not as good. Early in the journey some days were really bad. The work situation has since improved, but the overall one hasn't yet.

I tell you this for one reason. We won't always know why we are going through the trials we go through. I don't understand why I'm where I'm at after all this time -- and if I get my eyes on the problem for too long it gets bigger. I've learned that Jesus is in charge. I still have problems with my situation, but Jesus knows what He is doing. I can look back over the last few years and I can honestly say that I'm a VERY different person from the homeless drug addict I was when I walked into that mission. I can only say that so far it would appear that Jesus still has some stuff for me to learn in the current situation, and then he'll move me on to something else. That will happen on His time schedule, though, not mine.

Edited April 27, 2007 by walla299

[MK202002]

The more time you spend in the Word, the more the Holy Spirit has to work with to help you through this. I won't make it sound like one of those "victory 'til you throw up" preachers you see on tv.

thanks- I think I feel kind of condemed right now. Maybe it's my church, or friends, or maybe it's in my head. Maybe this whole mess will help me walk more humbly. Anyone 50+, is it true that at the end of your life it's common to feel like you will never "get there?"

[tsth]

Dear MK,

I hope I can share this, in a manner that you will receive, but I have to say right off the bat, that the situation your husband is in is in no way relateable to "illness". We, as Christians, have to learn to be completely honest in heart about our circumstances, and we must first and foremost recognize that God is just, and when we do things that are against Him, and His Word, He very clearly states that there are results/penalties. He also tells us that this is why we have the civil authorities in place that we do, to mete out the consequences of breaking the laws of the land. As a citizen, we must be thankful that we do have servants of the land, willing to put their lives on the line, in order to keep us safe in our homes. Now, having said that, we also as Christians, must be wiling to speak the truth in love to one another, and share our burdens. I hear your hurt, in hoping that your husband would be able to be home and out of prison, but you must be honest and willing enough to answer up to the truth, that he did things that were not right, and thus, now he is having to reap the consequences. We also must understand that God is just in all His ways, and if your husband has incurred time, then he must be humble enough to accept the consequences of his actions.......this is pleasing to the Father, and is necessary in order to be in submission to the Father. We have to always be willing to be patient with what takes place and know that God is just. The most important passage with regard to these issues is this....If your husband did something that was against another, and that was in fact against God, he must be satisfied that he is going to reap what has been sown.

Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

(I speak of these things from experience. My past is not one I am proud of, and there are some issues that I am still having to deal with, due to the choices I have made. These things are right, otherwise God would not be a "just" and "fair" God. And sometimes, we have to come to the conclusion that these judgments are right and good for us in the longrun.)

In His Love,

Suzanne