Original Sin

[Ovedya]

Sin is not to be had, but to be done.

"If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it." (Gen. 4:7)

This is a very clear indication that Cain's sin indwelt him, waiting for him, even desiring him to commit evil. This is further evidenced by Paul's statements in Romans 7:8-11

In the Hebrew language, according to Strongs, in Gen. 4:7, sin is Chatta'ah. It literally means "sin. the condition of sin. It is the noun form of Chata', that is, "To sin. To miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit..."

So God's telling Cain that "sin crouches at the door" meant that sin was a thing waiting to seize the opportunity to cause Cain to sin (verb). What was it that caused Cain to conceive murder in his heart? It was nothing less than his anger and jealousy of his brother. Yet another indication of sin.

That sin within Paul was his own rebelion against the law.

Paul never rebelled against the Law!

"Circumcised the eighth day; of the race of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; As to zeal, persecuting the church; as to the righteousness which is in the law, become blameless." (Phil. 3:5-6)

Selfishness is only one result of sin. It is the evidence of it - the fruit of it.

Romans 14:23b whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Faith in Christ.

1John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin:

1John 3:4b sin is the transgression of the law. The Law shows us the character of Christ.

Selfishness is not a sin but a cause of sin.

Romans 11:16b and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

John 15:4b As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Selfishness is a part of the root, not of the fruit.

To know Christ is to love Him. To know Him, your effections are toward Him.

When one does not know Christ, ones effections are towards ones own self, therfore selfish

Christ is the Root and the Vine of the one who has Eternal Life.

One who does not have Christ, has himself as the root therefore, the only fruit is from selfishness of which his desires are towards.

Selfishness in and of itself certainly is a cause of offenses (sins). Yet it remains the result of something deeper, a nature which fuels it:

"And the works of the flesh are manifest, which are such things as...envyings..."

Envy is synonymous with jealousy, which is fueled by the selfish desire for someone else's status, things, etc. It is in violation of the commandment, hence sin (verb), and also because of sin (noun).

Unsaved man sins(his fruit) therefore, unsaved man is described as sinfull.

So also man does not have a "sin nature" he has a "human nature"; sin is the fruit and not to desribe his nature.

The human nature includes sin: sin in the flesh (Rom. 8:3)

Tree = tree nature, trees bear fruit: Fruit = apple - Apple tree

Human = human nature, men bear fruit: Fruit = sin - sinner

Tree = tree nature; apple trees produce apples.

Human = human nature; humans have sin, commit sins, and are called sinners.

To call human nature "sin nature' is as rediculous as to call a womans nature an "embrio nature", a "fetus nature", "baby nature", all because a woman bears fruit from her womb.

furthermore, man always do the things that I will list that could be called our nature according to your logic: we would have a burping nature, a pooping nature, a fatring nature, sneezing nature, booger/snot nature. My point is that the rediculousness of calling our naure a "sin nature".

You're reducing this to bodily functions now? If you bark like a dog does that make you a dog? If you stand as still as you can and attempt to grow leaves from your arms, will you become a tree? If you live underground and eat dirt will you be a worm? According to your logic a person is a sinner because he sins, not because he has the nature of sin within him. So then I could logically become a dog, a cat, a horse, or even a tree or a rock if I just barked, purred, pranced, grew leaves, or curled up in a ball and remained very still.

You are making a presumption about the verses that simply is not there. The point if the passage is to show that Christ is the means by which we can be resurrected from the dead. It's a rebuttal to the charge that there is no resurrection (v. 12). It does not state or imply that physical death is the result of Adam's fall.

Then don't twist it to conform to your doctrine.

I didn't twist a thing, friend.

[Ovedya]

I would recommend a book "The Normal Christian Life" by Watchman Nee.

Yes!

And also, "The Normal Christian Faith."

Specifically, Chapters 7-8.

[Thaddaeus]

dugmando,

If what you are saying is so, what brought death to Adam his natural state or his disobedience ?

his disobedience. The wages of sin is death.

What would have been Adams state, if Adam had not disobeyed God's command, would he have lived forever?

Yes. The Tree of Life was also in the Garden. God created man to be eternal. But He left it to man to achieve either one. All we know is that Adam could not have been immortal already.

What do you think is the purpose of man? Would not God have created a creature that would be in communion with Him forever? This creature bore His Image. Would God permit any such creature to perish in death? Once man sinned and fell, God went to great extremes, gave His ONLY Son to die to redeem those creatues and give them eternal life. God created man to have communion. Why would He permit any to die permanently?

It is sin which has caused man problem and the reason for Christ's Atonement, Not death.

If you only have the atonment, then what you are saying is that God only wanted communion with individuals and only a few of them for a short time - their earthly life. A resurrection is not needed for atonment. Man would still die and it would be the end of man. You would simply return to dust as the condemnation of Adam means. Atonement is only necessary in this life. Christ did not eradicate sin, our fallenness, nor the fallen world. thus to even have union in this life, the atonement was necessary. Hardly worth the Cost of His ONLY Son.

Quite the contrary. God wanted communion wth man for an etenrity. The condemnation of Adam needed to be corrected or all of his creation ends in death and Satan is also the victor. Christ overcame death and sin for all of humanity.

Christ did not die for my death but for my sin, which causes all men to die.

Sin does not cause any man to die a physical death since Adam. We are all dying as a consequnce of the sentence against Adam. The sin we commit and if not forgiven, and we do not believe, then the death we face is a spiritual death. An etenrity apart from God. Man can only die once, a physical death. Our sins do not make us die physically. This view is also part of the Pelagiius' view. If it is our sin, then any man could resist and could be perfect as Christ was, which was the view of Pelagius. Edited June 4, 2007 by Thaddaeus

[firehill]

firehill:

God created Adam and breathed the breath of life into him and he became a living being. Adam lived at that point. Then he could have eventualy died by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil or lived and not die by eating of the tree of life. He could have even eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and lived in a dying state and then eaten of the tree of life and forever lived in that decaying, dying state.

Ovedya's response:

An eternally dying state? You mean like a walking zombie? Like with pieces of his flesh rotting and falling off his body until he would have eventually been nothing but a living skeleton? Seriously?

God threw the man out of the garden so that he would not live forever IN the fallen corrupted state that he was in by reaching out and taking of the tree of life. How it would pan out had fallen Adam eaten from the tree of life before God threw him out, I donno. He still though would have lived forever in his corrupted state.

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

[Thaddaeus]

firehill,

I thought that I made apparent that after Adam all are born in the 'fallen state'. I donno. Help me out here where the confusion came from. Good post though

That confusion was probably all my fault. I just did not see your questions as rhetorical. It did seem strange, since you have been describing it correctly as I believe it to be. But it did bring another option which was dismissed.

I am sorry for the confusion.

[OopsMartin]

What we actually take from the "Adam's Family" is that they brought death to us from their sin. I believe that at the moment their sin was complete, that they began to die. Their very phsical composition changed from pure liveliness to the process of dying.

Ovedya says:

[Ovedya]

firehill:

God created Adam and breathed the breath of life into him and he became a living being. Adam lived at that point. Then he could have eventualy died by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil or lived and not die by eating of the tree of life. He could have even eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and lived in a dying state and then eaten of the tree of life and forever lived in that decaying, dying state.

Ovedya's response:

An eternally dying state? You mean like a walking zombie? Like with pieces of his flesh rotting and falling off his body until he would have eventually been nothing but a living skeleton? Seriously?

God threw the man out of the garden so that he would not live forever IN the fallen corrupted state that he was in by reaching out and taking of the tree of life. How it would pan out had fallen Adam eaten from the tree of life before God threw him out, I donno. He still though would have lived forever in his corrupted state.

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

We agree!

We just don't agree that man's "corrupted state" was his sin nature. Because if it were physical death only, then certainly walking zombies.

[firehill]

firehill:

God created Adam and breathed the breath of life into him and he became a living being. Adam lived at that point. Then he could have eventualy died by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil or lived and not die by eating of the tree of life. He could have even eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and lived in a dying state and then eaten of the tree of life and forever lived in that decaying, dying state.

Ovedya's response:

An eternally dying state? You mean like a walking zombie? Like with pieces of his flesh rotting and falling off his body until he would have eventually been nothing but a living skeleton? Seriously?

God threw the man out of the garden so that he would not live forever IN the fallen corrupted state that he was in by reaching out and taking of the tree of life. How it would pan out had fallen Adam eaten from the tree of life before God threw him out, I donno. He still though would have lived forever in his corrupted state.

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

We agree!

We just don't agree that man's "corrupted state" was his sin nature. Because if it were physical death only, then certainly walking zombies.

Something like that...

[Ovedya]

What we actually take from the "Adam's Family" is that they brought death to us from their sin. I believe that at the moment their sin was complete, that they began to die. Their very phsical composition changed from pure liveliness to the process of dying.

Ovedya says:

[Ovedya]

firehill:

God created Adam and breathed the breath of life into him and he became a living being. Adam lived at that point. Then he could have eventualy died by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil or lived and not die by eating of the tree of life. He could have even eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and lived in a dying state and then eaten of the tree of life and forever lived in that decaying, dying state.

Ovedya's response:

An eternally dying state? You mean like a walking zombie? Like with pieces of his flesh rotting and falling off his body until he would have eventually been nothing but a living skeleton? Seriously?

God threw the man out of the garden so that he would not live forever IN the fallen corrupted state that he was in by reaching out and taking of the tree of life. How it would pan out had fallen Adam eaten from the tree of life before God threw him out, I donno. He still though would have lived forever in his corrupted state.

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

We agree!

We just don't agree that man's "corrupted state" was his sin nature. Because if it were physical death only, then certainly walking zombies.

Something like that...

Wow. What a breath of fresh air!