Original Sin

[dugmando]

firehill,

I am not blaming adam for my sin.

My sin is exactly what it is my sin.

But what I am saying is that all of mankind knows what sin is because of adam's disobedience, with that said it doesn't free us or excuse our sin!

Neither does it give us a way around sin.

Only Jesus, the Cross and the Blood are our only hope for that!

Dug

[firehill]

firehill,

I am not blaming adam for my sin.

My sin is exactly what it is my sin.

My simple point is that the doctrne of 'original sin' DOES blame Adam for OUR sin as if it weren't OUR own. We don't sin because we are guilty of Adam's. I don't know how many times the body has to turn around and beat all the false doctrines perpetuated by the IC.

[Thaddaeus]

ruck1b,

Which one are you? Which one were you? We who are in Christ were not always of the last Adam.

Since Christ did in fact fulfill the prophecies proclaimed before His Coming, all men are not of Adam. It is also not quite accurate to really say that those IN Christ were not always of the last Adam.

The reason for this is that since God promised the Coming of the Messiah to Adam at his exit from the garden, no man has ever been under Adam. God operated before Christ as if Christ had already come and redeemed in actuality mankind from Adam.

This is why even the OT saints were held accountable for their sins and faith has always been the road to personal salvation. Paul affirms this in Romans 9-11 discourse as he does in most of the Book of Hebrews.

Relative to your questions, I think they have all been answered already in going through this thread. But to summarize:

The Cross which was prophecied already long before the event that a Messiah would come and suffer, die and be raised for the justification of mankind. Christ in assuming our fallen natures through the birth from a Virgin needs to have suffered death as man, so that the Resurrection of that nature would bring life to mankind. Redeemed mankind from death, from destruction, from the hold of Satan upon man.

Blood. It was the means of atonement in the OT as a archtype of the sacrifical Lamp, Christ. Blood is life and it propitiated the sins of the people. Through that sacrifice Christ is able to forgive sins. Sins of those who come to Him in faith, repent of their sins and seek a covenantal relationship with Him, thus fulfilling the created purpose of man, to be in union and communion with Him.

[4Pillars]

4pillars,

You gave Romans 5:14 as a point of proof or reference and quoting you said:

Now, following your thought regarding Romans 5:14, the text clearly says

Edited June 10, 2007 by 4Pillars

[EricH]

However, the fact of the matter is, even your friend admitted that Enoch was an exception -- who walked with God and was taken to heaven, thus, did not suffer death. Therefore, the doctrinal assumption that ALL died because of Adam' sin is flawed.

The text does not say that Enoch was sinless and therefore untouched by death. The text simply says God took Enoch. You are filling in too many blanks here by assuming that Enoch was not subject to Spiritual death

[4Pillars]

However, the fact of the matter is, even your friend admitted that Enoch was an exception -- who walked with God and was taken to heaven, thus, did not suffer death. Therefore, the doctrinal assumption that ALL died because of Adam' sin is flawed.

The text does not say that Enoch was sinless and therefore untouched by death. The text simply says God took Enoch. You are filling in too many blanks here by assuming that Enoch was not subject to Spiritual death

Those who are "Born Again" or created in the image and likeness of God, SPIRITUALLY, do not suffer spiritual death. To think otherwise equates to God making a mistake which is ridiculous. The text also did not say Enoch committed a sin. You are just assuming it, as well.

Enoch did not suffer physical nor spiritual death. Perhaps, you missed reading this text below...

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Conclusion: The doctrinal theory of "Original Sin" is flawed and not supported by the Scripture.

God Bless

Edited June 10, 2007 by 4Pillars

[4Pillars]

Dear ruck1b,

Perhaps, what you continue and failed to realize, even to this date, is that... the cited passages (here) written in the Book of Romans were meant and address specifically to the Gentiles only -- not to the chosen people of God (who were made perfect).

Before, the resurrection of Christ, ALL Gentiles were dead in sins, without God in this world, walking according to the power of the prince of the air. That is why the text claimed ALL (Gentiles) have sinned. And I agree.

God Bless

Edited June 10, 2007 by 4Pillars

[4Pillars]

Dear ruck1b,

Perhaps, what you continue and failed to realize, even to this date, is that... the cited passages (here) written in the Book of Romans were meant and address specifically to the Gentiles only -- not to the chosen people of God (who were made perfect).

Before, the resurrection of Christ, ALL Gentiles were dead in sins, without God in this world, walking according to the power of the prince of the air. That is why the text claimed ALL (Gentiles) have sinned. And I agree.

God Bless

This is what the Word says

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin.

The chosen people of God were made perfect. Please show me where?

Dear ruck1b,

Once again, the situation that you are citing above is after the resurrection of Christ. Therefore, there is no longer difference between the two when they sinned or under sin. They now must come to Christ and repent.

I guess you also missed reading my previous post with regards to those chosen people who were PERPECT and BLAMELESS in the eyes of the Lord, correct? Then, allow me to cut-and-paste it for you again.....

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and PERFECT in his generations, and Noah WALKED with God.

Job1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was PERFECT and UPRIGHT, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Luke1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. v6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord BLAMELESS.

Clearly, the Scripture document and describe them to be perfect and blameless in the eyes of the Lord and yet your church continue to assume them to be sinners? IF so, chapter and verse, please...

God Bless

[4Pillars]

This is what the Word says

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin.

The chosen people of God were made perfect. Please show me where?

Dear ruck1b,

Once again, the situation that you are citing above is after the resurrection of Christ. Therefore, there is no longer difference between the two when they sinned or under sin. They now must come to Christ and repent.

They (the Jew) now must come to Christ and repent? Why would the Jews repent if they were already perfect? Makes no sense. Where did you get such a doctrine? So after the resurrection of Christ they were considered sinners. Not only do you make the Word say what you want it, but then you make work of Christ of no effect. Once again this is what the WORD SAYS.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Now what would the Jew, and the Greek need to be saved from. Did the Jews (as the chosen people) begin sinning after Christ came. There is a whole Testament that proves otherwise. It would seem as if you have YOUR OWN interpretation concerning the Bible. You even stray from what Paul taught.

Dear ruck1b,

The record will show that I have provided you with the SPECIFIC NAMES of people that are considered PERFECT and BLAMELESS as documented in the Scripture. Obviously, you

Edited June 11, 2007 by 4Pillars

[EricH]

However, the fact of the matter is, even your friend admitted that Enoch was an exception -- who walked with God and was taken to heaven, thus, did not suffer death. Therefore, the doctrinal assumption that ALL died because of Adam' sin is flawed.

The text does not say that Enoch was sinless and therefore untouched by death. The text simply says God took Enoch. You are filling in too many blanks here by assuming that Enoch was not subject to Spiritual death

Those who are "Born Again" or created in the image and likeness of God, SPIRITUALLY, do not suffer spiritual death. To think otherwise equates to God making a mistake which is ridiculous. The text also did not say Enoch committed a sin. You are just assuming it, as well.

Enoch did not suffer physical nor spiritual death. Perhaps, you missed reading this text below...

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Conclusion: The doctrinal theory of "Original Sin" is flawed and not supported by the Scripture.

God Bless

Physical death is just a symptom of a larger issue called spiritual death. Simply because God spared Enoch of the symptom, does not mean that He did not suffer from the disease. You have equated pleasing God, with being absent of any sin whatsoever. You have also assumed (though the text in no place states it) that Enoch was not spiritually dead. That is a large logical leap. Romans says that through Adam all have sinned and that death has come to all (Romans 3:23 and 6:23). Enoch is included in the "all". We also know from the text that without faith it is impossible to please God. You also left the context out of your Hebrews 11:5 quote:

Now without faith it is impossible to please God, for the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists and rewards those who seek Him.

Hebrews 11:6 HCSB

So, if Enoch did please God, it was by his faith (not his sinlessness). We also know that there will be another time where God spares those who have pleased Him by their faith, by taking them without their dieing physically(even thought they sinned). Enoch's translation was simply a foretaste of what is to come for all believers who are alive on the earth, when Christ returns. They will be translated without dieing (physically), because they pleased God by their faith, not their sinlessness.