Cold or Hot

[nebula]

but somehow we took on a stance that it had parasites in the water? it seems obvious today but

2000 years ago, bacteria in water was not a common belief. if it was then i'd like to read about it.

No, they didn't know about parasites back then.

However, they did know that the water channeled into their city would make them sick if they didn't boil it first.

[EricH]

how did this whole thread take a strong stance on parasites?

thats fine if people believe he was spewing (which does not mean vomiting) out warm water but bacteria

grows in hot and cold waters. I think mankind has had water filtrations methods for way more than

2000 years.

google "history water filtrations"

im glad everyone has a stance. actually i thank the lord that everyone studies. now if we do not

see eye to eye then that's fine. it doesnt mean that one does not have the Holy Spirit but something has not been

revealed to one party yet. this all happens in due time.

but to each his own and I pray we all continue in our walk.

The problem is that not all of us can be right. A passage does not have multiple meanings.

youre definately right. however, if I ask a simple question like "can bacteria grow in cold water?" the answer is "yes."

we live in Texas (as from i can see in your location). Have you ever been camping?

they always say to boil water then let it cool. this method of killing bacteria is ancient. it seriously is.

so I cant accept a conclusion that parasites grow only in warm water ONLY.

Where in scripture does it say that bacteria only grows in warm water.

where in historical records shows that warm water obviously had bacteria or parasites.

actually, did people believe in bacteria or parasites 2000 years ago?

didn't mankind (once upon a time) believe in spontaneous generation?

didnt mankind had medicinal practices that we cringe at today? the Laodecians used to go to the hot springs

becaue they believed it had medicinal purposes. these people weren't biologists and we're talking biology with them.

but somehow we took on a stance that it had parasites in the water? it seems obvious today but

2000 years ago, bacteria in water was not a common belief. if it was then i'd like to read about it.

as i said: to each his own but are we questioning that "one true meaning" or are we runing into dominant personalites?

Yes, it is possible for parasites to grow in all sorts of water. But we are not talking about all sorts of water. We are talking about the situation that was specific to the church in Revelation. Their situation was as described above. The water from the cold well refreshed, the water from the hot well was known for healing, and the water from the pipeline was so laden with parasites it induced vomiting. That is the historical data. Now the question is how does that data impact our understanding of the passage?

[exrockstar]

how did this whole thread take a strong stance on parasites?

thats fine if people believe he was spewing (which does not mean vomiting) out warm water but bacteria

grows in hot and cold waters. I think mankind has had water filtrations methods for way more than

2000 years.

google "history water filtrations"

im glad everyone has a stance. actually i thank the lord that everyone studies. now if we do not

see eye to eye then that's fine. it doesnt mean that one does not have the Holy Spirit but something has not been

revealed to one party yet. this all happens in due time.

but to each his own and I pray we all continue in our walk.

The problem is that not all of us can be right. A passage does not have multiple meanings.

youre definately right. however, if I ask a simple question like "can bacteria grow in cold water?" the answer is "yes."

we live in Texas (as from i can see in your location). Have you ever been camping?

they always say to boil water then let it cool. this method of killing bacteria is ancient. it seriously is.

so I cant accept a conclusion that parasites grow only in warm water ONLY.

Where in scripture does it say that bacteria only grows in warm water.

where in historical records shows that warm water obviously had bacteria or parasites.

actually, did people believe in bacteria or parasites 2000 years ago?

didn't mankind (once upon a time) believe in spontaneous generation?

didnt mankind had medicinal practices that we cringe at today? the Laodecians used to go to the hot springs

becaue they believed it had medicinal purposes. these people weren't biologists and we're talking biology with them.

but somehow we took on a stance that it had parasites in the water? it seems obvious today but

2000 years ago, bacteria in water was not a common belief. if it was then i'd like to read about it.

as i said: to each his own but are we questioning that "one true meaning" or are we runing into dominant personalites?

Yes, it is possible for parasites to grow in all sorts of water. But we are not talking about all sorts of water. We are talking about the situation that was specific to the church in Revelation. Their situation was as described above. The water from the cold well refreshed, the water from the hot well was known for healing, and the water from the pipeline was so laden with parasites it induced vomiting. That is the historical data. Now the question is how does that data impact our understanding of the passage?

im all for it. i have my beliefs as i stated before but im here to learn.

if you said cold = refreshed and hot = healing then im like "ok (in an accepting way)" but when you start saying warm = x and/because warm water had bacteria (and Chirst spews Christians that are like parasites...) then imma going to not buy that. thats what i said on the previous page. where dd the conversation on parasites have a strong postition in the discussion.

i think i see what youre saying. youre concluding that people drank from the water in the pipeline.

thats fine but I give them credit that they were a little intelligent not to drink from it.

[exrockstar]

but somehow we took on a stance that it had parasites in the water? it seems obvious today but

2000 years ago, bacteria in water was not a common belief. if it was then i'd like to read about it.

No, they didn't know about parasites back then.

However, they did know that the water channeled into their city would make them sick if they didn't boil it first.

all temperatures of water got treated not just warm.

google it.

[EricH]

I tend to see how frustration can set in when reading some responses. It seems as if people purposely refuse to "get it". IMHO, I think this thread has been exhausted. Everything that needs to be said has been. I suggest that there is a reading of the Word WITH PRAYER, and just let (as Pilgrim says) "the Holy Spirit lead us into HIS TRUTH. I feel that the truth has been shared, but that eyes are too dull to see it. In any case let us pray for our eyes, that we may see. There are many things that we can't see and and because of this need the "scales" removed. So let us lift each other up and trust God that He will shine forth His much needed revelation; not only in this topic but in ALL THINGS.

I love you all

Good thoughts. But this is a discussion worth having. How one handles a text, and how one views context are very important issues for understanding and hearing God's voice from a text. If our goal is to hear God when we read a text and to apply what we hear to our lives and to teach others with our changed lives (Ezra 7:10), then we should be sure that we are hearing what God intended us to hear. Depending on the Holy Spirit to illuminate us should not be viewed as a replacement for doing the work we need to do to understand a text so we can hear God's voice. When 2 people who are claiming to hear the Holy Spirit hear 2 different and mutually exclusive things, there is a problem with which we need to wrestle. That's why this issue is much deeper than the meaning of "hot", "cold", and "luke warm". We are really talking about how we go about ensuring that we don't get in the way of hearing God's voice, by the way we interpret a given text.

I do appreciate your concern that we do this in a spirit of love and true concern that all of us draw nearer to the likeness of Jesus through the process.

[Guest shiloh357]

The resistance to the understanding about the parasites and the diseased water that ended up in Laodecia from Hieropolis and Colosse, is based upon a traditional view, that by in large, has gone unchallenged.

For a long time, I had always heard that the hot water and cold water referred to either vibrant Christians or those who were spiritually dead, and that the lukewarm people amount to fence riders.

That is the prevailing belief of many people with respect to this passage. I can understand that position, and I respect that position.

There are, however, problems with that interpretation. As has been noted, one glaring problem is the clear absence of any definition of "hot" or "cold." There is nothing in the passage that demands "hot" be understood to refer vibrant Christians living in full service to the Lord. There is nothing in the passage that demands "cold" to refer to those who whose heart is hardened to God, or are "backslidden" as an old friend of mine suggested years ago. In order to define "hot" and "cold" under the conventional understanding, one must provide other examples from the Scriptures where "hot" and "cold" are used to denote opposite poles of spiritual vibrancy or the lack thereof. Those who demand such definitions have placed upon themselves the burden of providing such evidence.

It should also be noted that if such definitions cannot be provided there is no burden on my part to prove that "hot" and "cold" do not refer to opposite spiritual states. In the absence of any thing to the contrary the plain sense of the text is the default.

The problem is that no such parallel passage exists. There are no places anywhere else in either the Old or New Testaments where this understanding of "hot" and "cold" are offered to describe opposite spiritual states. So we are left with Revelation 3:15,16. We must, from this text, derive the exact meaning that the Jesus via John was trying to communicate.

The popular view of this text, rarely gets challenged, thus it has become ingrained or entrenched in our thinking to mean something that the evidence shows was not exactly what Jesus meant. Many sermons have been preached on this passage. Many evangelists and pastors have warned about "lukewarmness" from this passage, and God has blessed those sermons and fruit has been borne in spite of the fact that this interpretation is incorrect. God uses us and is able to bless us in spite of ourselves.

It is simply too easy for us to read our culture and our 21 century Christianity into the Bible and we are so far removed from the people, and the ancient cultures that existed when the Bible was penned, that we miss important truths, as a result.

It is important for us to remember that the Bible was as much a book for the people who were its original audience as it is for us today. While we can glean principles and applications from the text, the initial interpretation belongs to the original audience.

What I have seen in this thread is a misunderstanding between application and interpretation. The historical data with respect to the Laodecians is factual and cannot be factored out simply because it does not lend itself to the conventional understanding.

Jesus was not calling anyone a parasite. Jesus was comparing the spiritual deadness of the Laodecians to something they would have been acutely familiar with. It was something they all had in common. He was comparing their spiritual condition and their evident conscious apathy with the effects the untreated water would have on the human body. He was actually delivering a far stronger more poignant message than what has been delivered in the past based on the conventional understanding of the passage.

[nebula]

'Goading' is a two way street. I would guess that those who crucified the Lord felt that they were 'goaded' into it.

No, Dennis - you've been trying to start personal fights. It is obvious that you are ignoring the subject at hand, and have singled out Shiloh for attack. It is also clear you are wagging your tail at me with responses like this.

You have been asked countless times to present with supporting Scripture your case for Hot meaning "on fire for God" and Cold meaning "dead to God", but as of yet, your responses have only dodged the issue.

By the way, if Hot is "on fire for God" and Cold is "dead to God," what is Hell, where "the flame is quenched not?"

[Guest]

'Goading' is a two way street.

Goating (Goading) Stops When True Esteem Starts.

Esteem Others

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Philippians 2:3

Esteem And Be At Peace

And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

1 Thessalonians 5:13

Dear Brother Dennis

I Write Only Because You Are The Beloved Of The Lord.

I Write Only To Remind You Of Your Love.

These Dear Ones At Worthy Are Our Eternal Brothers And Sisters.

Redeem The Time.

Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Ephesians 5:16

If I Offend, Please Forgive Me.

I'm Really Nobody But.....

Wow!

Ain't God Awesome!

The Word Of God Is Full Of Wonders

And Joys And Love And Warnings

And Time Travel Backward And Forward

And Mercy And Grace

And Holy Abba Father And The Almighty LORD Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit Of The Living God

And No Condemnation Of The Kids Of The One Called Worthy.

You Sir Are A Child Of The KING.

You Sir Are An Ambassador Of The Mighty KING.

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ .....

2 Corinthians 5:20

You Witness For Your Lord Upon These Boards.

You Show Your Lord's Love Upon These Boards.

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 John 3:14

Be Kind

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Hebrews 10:23-24

Be Blessed Beloved

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24-25

Love, Your Brother Joe

[EricH]

I split the discussion regarding the responsibility for the death of Jesus off into its own topic. Here is the link:

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=64169