Nation Against Nation

[nebula]

Matthew 24:6,7 - You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

We've been having some heated debates about the current war the US is involved in. In seeking help and advise from others, I have come to see that these battles between us are as dung.

What did Jesus say about such things?

Were the End Times revelations given so that we could "dig out" who the Anti-Christ is? Did He have it in His heart for us judge the nations? Does the Lord not laugh at these? (Psalm 2)

When Jesus walked this Earth, the land was dominated by a world power. Though it contained great evil, do we see recorded any words from our Lord against the Roman Empire? Was it in His heart to overthrow the government, as was in the hearts of the Jewish people (to include His followers)? No, His sights were not set on the kingdoms of man.

And yet today, where are our sights set? Sure things have changed. The oddest part is that we have world governments where the people have a voice in the policies that occur (well, at least in theory ). But the fact that we have freedom of voice compels to us to speak out concerning the affairs of this world. We think if we speak loud enough our voice can make a change.

But is this the voice of the word of the Lord?

Ephesians 6:12 - "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

It's so easy to see the flesh and blood rulers as the evil we are to concern ourselves with. But is this our Biblical mandate? Is it to tear down rulers of this world, or to make disciples of all nations? Does the Lord desire for our focus to be "who the Evil One is" and how we are to oppose "his (earthly) kingdom"? Or is it His desire for us to be a part of His building His kingdom here on Earth - a kingdom not made with hands and not determined by the rise and fall of the nations around us.

But where does that leave us in "The War on Terrorism"?

Genesis 9:6 - "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed;

for in the image of God has God made man. "

As I read the prophets in the Old Testament, time and time again I see them speaking of the judgments of God proclaimed against nations for their sins, and I see the Lord using another nation to bring His judgment against the nation being spoken against. (I am assuming you all hear have read the OT to know what I am referring to?)

We get so caught up in conspiracy theories about who is controlling the world, and we get so caught up in who the Anti-Christ is, and we make a big deal out of the physical rulers of this world and how they are working their plans to usher in the Anti-Christ and all that. But then I wonder - who really is in control of the affairs of this world? Is it the devil and his minions? Or do we truly believe :music: "He's got the whole world in His hands"?

Are you proud enough to say that the US rising against Iraq (or rather the Saddam Regieme(sp?) of Iraq) was or was not the hand of the Lord? Are we so concerened with the kingdom of Satan and of the Anti-Christ that we would rather look for his hand in the conflict than to see the Lord's hand? "But what if this is the Anti-Christ's hand?" you may argue. I again reply, is not even the power of the Anti-Christ under the command of the lord? As you read Revelation, do you not see that even the greatest evil Satan can muster is worked towards God's purpose?

Who is in control - really?

Am I trying to deny that the US is guilty of sin? No. But I will question for which sin the US is most guilty of.

Revelation 9:20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood

[Guest LadyC]

excellent post, neb!

[Guest idolsmasher]

Good post Neb, and for the most part I agree with you. I could bring out a couple of points but for now I'll restrain myself.....unless you want me to.

Anyway, just wanted to say I like thegeneral direction you are going with this. Good job! BTW Neb, I've never known you to be so long winded, what happened???

[OneAccord]

Nebula, your post is right on. In the world but not of the world, I agree 100% with what you are saying here.

What concerns me is that the Christian Right has become VERY outspoken regarding world politics, presidential elections and affairs of the state.

I think the Amish have the right idea. They form intentional communities, live as godly a life as they can, and mind their own business when it comes to worldly affairs.

Personally I get offended when people in church stand up for the flag and sit down to worship the Lord. Nationalism is a worldly, temporal condition, and it creates conflicts like what we have seen lately in these threads. It is divisive rather than unifying.

Thank you, sister for posting that, I'm sure it was very healing for you to write it. If you keep that perpective you'll be fine. :il:

[nebula]

I could bring out a couple of points but for now I'll restrain myself.....unless you want me to.

No thank-you, actually.

Proverbs 27:6

[Guest idolsmasher]

No thank-you, actually.

Ok, fair enough! This is your thread, and it's a very good one, thanks!

Proverbs 27:5

[Guest yod]

What concerns me is that the Christian Right has become VERY outspoken regarding world politics, presidential elections and affairs of the state.

and you think we should leave all of this for the unchristian left to decide without challenge???

If you don't want christians to have any opinions you can stop anytime you wish.

[Guest idolsmasher]

and you think we should leave all of this for the unchristian left to decide without challenge???

If you don't want christians to have any opinions you can stop anytime you wish.

I think you missed the spirit of this thread and Nebula's post Yod. Show some respect will ya! OA is right on about this. The Christian right is extremely political to the point of serious compromise of the gospel for political goals.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Couldn't patriotism and nationalism be considered loving the world???

[Work in Progress]

What concerns me is that the Christian Right has become VERY outspoken regarding world politics, presidential elections and affairs of the state.

and you think we should leave all of this for the unchristian left to decide without challenge???

If you don't want christians to have any opinions you can stop anytime you wish.

Thank you, Yod.

[Guest LadyC]

What concerns me is that the Christian Right has become VERY outspoken regarding world politics, presidential elections and affairs of the state.

and you think we should leave all of this for the unchristian left to decide without challenge???

If you don't want christians to have any opinions you can stop anytime you wish.

well i agree with you yod. i believe it is our God given responsibility to stand up for what is right, and stand against what is wrong.