Were there 2 liars at the fall or just 1?

[None]

I don't have time to read every post but has this been pointed out?:

1 Timothy 2:12-14

12)But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13)For[because] Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14)And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Acording to Paul's opinion, Eve was decieved. Paul did know his Jewish history.

I don't understand your point. I do have a question though. Can we only believe her testimony once she fell into sin or can we believe too her witness she gave before she fell into sin?

The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

Why is she a liar when not a sinner but not a liar once in sin?

So she would lie to the serpent but not to God? Why? Who would she be trying to fool? I thought the serpent was the one trying to fool her. Why would she lie to the serpent? Why would she lie in front of her husband who was with her?

I brought Paul's view into it because he had a good understanding of events and because of how the men of the NT viewed the events of the garden. It made an impact on their opinion towards women's common judgement.

I don't believe it had anything to do with a lie on Eve's part. I don't believe she was less bright than Adam, possibly less learned, though. No matter what the case, she was and always will be viewed as the one who was deceived and it will take intelligence on OUR part to learn from the story properly and not use it to create a generalization of all women.

You asked:

"Did she lie about what God had said, making up something like the serpent did (satan, the serpent of the old) or was she not intelligent enough to get straight God's command (many attribute adding to God's word to her)?"

We aren't told how much time is inbetween God giving the command and Eve's conversation with satan. We don't know if years went by or days. We don't know how many times Eve and her husband discussed the tree and it's fruit. We don't know if they finalized their discussion on the note that it would be better just to stay away from it.

And, have you ever remembered a conversation word for word? I know I haven't. Not entirely.

God gave this command to Adam, not Eve, very important to remember. I can imagine(speculate) Adam saying to Eve, "DON'T TOUCH IT!", as well as the command from God. We know the order of events in Genesis and we know our male and female characteristic traits and what could have possibly played a role.

I don't believe it was a matter of intelligence, though, moreso than a matter of understanding. She understood that it was not to be eaten and that was the important factor.

Her sin was believing the snake that God would decieve Adam and then eating the fruit to test this theory.

[Guest Biblicist]

We aren't told how much time is inbetween God giving the command and Eve's conversation with satan. We don't know if years went by or days. We don't know how many times Eve and her husband discussed the tree and it's fruit. We don't know if they finalized their discussion on the note that it would be better just to stay away from it.

My theory, and that of my Pastor, is that the conversation between Satan and Eve happened very soon after their creation.

The reason behind such a theory.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

When Satan approached Adam and Eve she had not yet concieved. . . I imagine since they were perfect and there would have been no trouble conceiving, they would have obeyed God's command imediately. I don't know anyone who does not consumate their marriage on their wedding night. So I am thinking a week, not much more than that, transpired since the time he gave them this command and the conversation with Satan. He sure was crafty.

Just a theory.

[tsth]

Maybe the term deceived was applied to Eve because she played into Satan's lie and became a liar, by adding to the Word of God, and that is her sin. He used confusion to cause her to expound on the order God actually gave. Whether or not he gave the order to her is moot.

Adam's sin was his passiveness during the conversation. Should he not have stepped up and spoken to Satan and pulled his wife away from there?

Their ACTION of eating the fruit had nothing to do with what was happening in their hearts. The ACTION was only an outward sign of sin in their hearts.

The sin began in their hearts. Eating the fruit was only the end result.

Just my thoughts. . .

This ties back into the implemented familial order that God originally established when He created Adam and Eve. He did not want the woman to be the one in authority/spiritual leader of the family, because of this very thing. This doctrine is re-emphasized in 1 Tim 2:12:

1 Timothy 2:12-14

12)But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13)For[because] Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14)And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

God knew the vulnerability of the woman and also knew that the man must be the "head" of woman, just as Christ must be the head of man.

There is an instituted order, due to the way the deception can come in, and God knew this and instructed the way to guard against this very thing.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest Biblicist]

Maybe the term deceived was applied to Eve because she played into Satan's lie and became a liar, by adding to the Word of God, and that is her sin. He used confusion to cause her to expound on the order God actually gave. Whether or not he gave the order to her is moot.

Adam's sin was his passiveness during the conversation. Should he not have stepped up and spoken to Satan and pulled his wife away from there?

Their ACTION of eating the fruit had nothing to do with what was happening in their hearts. The ACTION was only an outward sign of sin in their hearts.

The sin began in their hearts. Eating the fruit was only the end result.

Just my thoughts. . .

This ties back into the implemented familial order that God originally established when He created Adam and Eve. He did not want the woman to be the one in authority/spiritual leader of the family, because of this very thing. This doctrine is re-emphasized in 1 Tim 2:12:

1 Timothy 2:12-14

12)But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13)For[because] Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14)And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

God knew the vulnerability of the woman and also knew that the man must be the "head" of woman, just as Christ must be the head of man.

There is an instituted order, due to the way the deception can come in, and God knew this and instructed the way to guard against this very thing.

In His Love,

Suzanne

I am inclined to acquiesce to your assessment.

Means; I agree.

[firehill]

Could someone please tell me what the point of this thread is???

I just don't get it. What is it you're trying to show/ask?

Are you just trying to show the difference in the account, or are you trying to surmise that Eve did something purposely to cause the fall?

In His Love,

Suzanne

Hi Suzanne,

Do you believe that when the woman replied to the serpent's question, in Genesis 3 that her reply was a lie, do you believe that her reply to the serpent was God's command and an addition to his command or because the command she said, that God said, is different from the one recorded, where God spoke to Adam, do you believe her reply shows that she was dumb, unable to understand God's command?

These are my questions. I was wondering which you believe? If you believe any of the above then please supply scriptural support for your belief. What I'm not interested in is a belief that has no scriptural backing because my concern is with what scripture says.

[firehill]

I don't believe it had anything to do with a lie on Eve's part.I don't believe she was less bright than Adam, possibly less learned, though.

Cool. Neither do I. We agree on these things. I don't believe that she was a deceiver along with the serpent. I believe that she was the deceived.

No matter what the case, she was and always will be viewed as the one who was deceived

She was deceived. She said she was deceived. God didn't correct her when she said she was deceived. Paul said she was deceived.

and it will take intelligence on OUR part to learn from the story properly and not use it to create a generalization of all women.

God gave this command to Adam, not Eve, very important to remember.

So when the woman quoted God she was really quoting Adam even though the verse says that she was quoting God?

Her sin was believing the snake that God would decieve Adam and then eating the fruit to test this theory.

Her sin wasn't being deceived. It was eating of the tree. She was deceived and thereby FELL INTO sin (eating).

[None]

So when the woman quoted God she was really quoting Adam even though the verse says that she was quoting God?

Exactly. Eve was not around yet when God told Adam not to eat of the fruit. Genesis gives only the account of God telling that to Adam.

Genesis 3:

1) Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

2) The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3) but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

If my 3 year old tells my 7 year old,"dad said be quiet" because I told him, "go tell your brother 'dad said be quiet'", my 3 year old is not lying when he says, "dad said be quiet" because that IS what dad said, he heard it from me. He believed me to be telling the truth.

Her sin wasn't being deceived. It was eating of the tree. She was deceived and thereby FELL INTO sin (eating).

I'm going by her mental decision to do it, just before she did it, combining them both to be the sin. It took faith to believe that God was telling the truth about what would happen if they ate of the fruit. When she believed the snake, rather than God, she lost her faith in God, at that moment. THEN she ate the fruit. She didn't fall, mouth first, onto the fruit, she thought about it first, decided to do it, then did it. It was a combined action sin. I suppose you could say she had to "lust" after the fruit first, in order to be able to eat it but it could have just been the curiosity of this whole "like God" business the snake was talking about.

Because there was no sin in the garden before these events, their was only faith in God in it's purest form.

Eve broke that shield of faith when she doubted God and believed the snake. She was decieved.

[Guest Biblicist]

Well said, None!

[eric]

I must be losing my touch, cuz I don't get the gist of this thread. Reminds of a comedy........ who's on first..... tra la la. I mean....does it matter?

[tsth]

Hi Suzanne,

Do you believe that when the woman replied to the serpent's question, in Genesis 3 that her reply was a lie, do you believe that her reply to the serpent was God's command and an addition to his command or because the command she said, that God said, is different from the one recorded, where God spoke to Adam, do you believe her reply shows that she was dumb, unable to understand God's command?

These are my questions. I was wondering which you believe? If you believe any of the above then please supply scriptural support for your belief. What I'm not interested in is a belief that has no scriptural backing because my concern is with what scripture says.

I believe that this is case in point why women are supposed to go to their husbands as the spiritual leader, rather than trying to debate something that should not be debated. Eve should have gone to Adam when Satan came with his "doctrines of demons" (See 1 Tim. 4:1) This was not something to be debated and clearly she needed to be talking to Adam and they needed to come together as one with regard to obeying God's commands. It goes back again to proving out why God ordained a structured authority with regard to the family and the church.

(Would the event have happened differently, if the serpent had approached Adam, rather than Eve?)

1 Cor. 14:32-34 - 1 Tim. 2:12-14 - Ephesians 5:21-33

1 Timothy 2:12-14

12)But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13)For[because] Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14)And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Today, it is much the same, the doctrines of demons are in the church, because the ordained order of authority is no longer adhered to. We do not acknowledge this order in the church or the family anymore, thus they are lead astray and in confusion, just as the enemy intended.

In His Love,

Suzanne