Were there 2 liars at the fall or just 1?

[EricH]

I think there a another possibility here that the context, and other passages that address this passage might indicate. So far, 2 options have been offered:

1. Eve was lying - that she purposefully misrepresented what God said

2. That Eve had another unrecorded conversation with God, where He added the stipulation not to touch the fruit

There is a 3rd possiblity. Namely that Eve was beginning to show signs of being deceived

The serpent (Satan) begins his conversation with Eve with the following statement:

Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You can't eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Genesis 3:1 HCSB

Notice that Satan is attacking God's character here. He adds to the restriction that God gave, making him seem unreasonable. Eve's reponse, it seems to me, indicates that she has begun to buy into this deception. She is not willing to go as far as the serpent, but she has begun to see God as stingy. She adds to the restriction. In other words Eve was not lying, she was falling prey to deception. She had started down th path of seeing God as being more strict than He really was. Not only could they not eat, they were not even allowed to touch. God was holding out on them (Thats what Satan wanted her to believe)

It also shows that she had begun to focus on the tree. When people begin to focus on something that they know is bad for them, there initial response is always to over react, then to focus unduly on the object (which Eve did in 3:6)

The idea that Eve was deceived is affirmed all through out scripture.

So I think Eve was not lying. She was a victim of deception.

So you are saying that part of her having been deceived was adding to God's word?

Yes, that is a very common reaction. When one is deceived, they begin to put words into God's mouth (or take them out in some cases). Eve was not lying to the serpent (who was her audience in this passage). She was responding to the serpents attemtp at deception. And Eve's adding to God's prohibition seems to me to indicate that the deception process had already begun

[methinkshe]

I think there a another possibility here that the context, and other passages that address this passage might indicate. So far, 2 options have been offered:

1. Eve was lying - that she purposefully misrepresented what God said

2. That Eve had another unrecorded conversation with God, where He added the stipulation not to touch the fruit

There is a 3rd possiblity. Namely that Eve was beginning to show signs of being deceived

The serpent (Satan) begins his conversation with Eve with the following statement:

Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You can't eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Genesis 3:1 HCSB

Notice that Satan is attacking God's character here. He adds to the restriction that God gave, making him seem unreasonable. Eve's reponse, it seems to me, indicates that she has begun to buy into this deception. She is not willing to go as far as the serpent, but she has begun to see God as stingy. She adds to the restriction. In other words Eve was not lying, she was falling prey to deception. She had started down th path of seeing God as being more strict than He really was. Not only could they not eat, they were not even allowed to touch. God was holding out on them (Thats what Satan wanted her to believe)

It also shows that she had begun to focus on the tree. When people begin to focus on something that they know is bad for them, there initial response is always to over react, then to focus unduly on the object (which Eve did in 3:6)

The idea that Eve was deceived is affirmed all through out scripture.

So I think Eve was not lying. She was a victim of deception.

That makes so much sense - and nor does it require that one has a degree in Hebrew grammar to understand what God would have us learn from the passage. It's what I've been trying to express but never quite managing. Thanks for explaining so simply yet succintly. I really appreciate it. It's going down as a margin note in my Bible.

In Jesus,

Ruth

That's just what I've been saying!

Yeah, I know!

Ruth

[EricH]

So here are the 3 options:

1. That God had a separate conversation with Eve, even though that is not recorded anyplace in scripture

2. That Eve was deceived by the serpent an began to mistrust God and add to what He had said in her own mind (imitating what Satan had just done in his conversation with her). That what we have is an excellent desription of the process people go through when they deceived by the evil one

3. That Eve lied on purpose to Satan

Even though 1 and 3 are possible, they don't make much sense to me in the light of the context. 2 seems to me to make the most sense to me. That what we have is a picture of the process of deception and what happens when we begin to not trust God.

[inhistime]

So here are the 3 options:

1. That God had a separate conversation with Eve, even though that is not recorded anyplace in scripture

2. That Eve was deceived by the serpent an began to mistrust God and add to what He had said in her own mind (imitating what Satan had just done in his conversation with her). That what we have is an excellent desription of the process people go through when they deceived by the evil one

3. That Eve lied on purpose to Satan

Even though 1 and 3 are possible, they don't make much sense to me in the light of the context. 2 seems to me to make the most sense to me. That what we have is a picture of the process of deception and what happens when we begin to not trust God.

Let's have another look at option #1 that God had a conversation with Eve that is not quoted directly in scripture. Now we must understand that God's words in scripture are either quoted directly or they are quoted by someone who tells us what God has said. Both ways are God's words and both ways are equally valid unless they are shown to be a lie. God's words to Adam are quoted directly. God's words to Eve are quoted by her as "God said".

We also have the confirmation in Genesis 1 that God spoke to both Adam and Eve about what they could eat.

Gen 1:28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Gen 1:29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you (plural) every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;

Here the prohibition is given in a different way since they were both given the freedom to eat from every tree except the tree which did not have fruit yielding seed. In these words from God himself, we can understand that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not have fruit that yields seed. So God gave the prohibition to both of them in a different manner. Did he also give the prohibition to Eve using words that told her not to touch the fruit? She said he did and we should believe her. Why should we believe her? Because the deception had not yet started.

2. That Eve was deceived by the serpent an began to mistrust God and add to what He had said in her own mind (imitating what Satan had just done in his conversation with her). That what we have is an excellent desription of the process people go through when they deceived by the evil one

This would be feasible only if the deception had already occurred. However when Eve gave her quote of what God said, the serpent had not yet told her that she could eat of the fruit and be wise. He had only asked a question at this point. Eve then answered the question and told the serpent what God had told her. If we put deception into the equation at this point then we have Eve deceived in her heart and falling away from God in her heart even before the serpent gives her his deception. That simply isn't possible in the text.

A better explanation would be that Eve was simply telling the truth. It was her testimony. Once the serpent told her that she wouldn't die and that God knows the truth and was hiding it from them because he had some ulterior motive to keep them from this wonderful knowledge that they could be like God, then she was was in the position of listening to deception.

Secondly if Eve had added to God's words she needed to be exposed and reprimanded. Although God reprimanded Adam for listening to his wife while she was being deceived and doing nothing about it, he did not reprimand Eve for adding to his words. We cannot charge Eve with sin when there is no evidence at all that she added to God's words. Adding to God's words is a serious sin.

Pro 30:6 Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.

Did Eve add to God's words and was she reproved and found a liar? No, not at all. No one in the scriptures ever tells us that she sinned in this way.

So we have God giving his prohibition in three different ways. First of all he told Adam not to eat of the fruit (direct words of God's used), then he told Eve after her creation not to eat of the fruit and to not even touch the fruit (Eve's testimony about what God said to her), lastly we have the prohibition restated to Adam and Eve in a way that stops them from eating from any tree that did not have fruit with seeds (God's direct words again). There are three different ways then that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is forbidden to Adam and Eve. Two of the three have a direct warning that death will result if they ate.

[OopsMartin]

So we have God giving his prohibition in three different ways. First of all he told Adam not to eat of the fruit (direct words of God's used), then he told Eve after her creation not to eat of the fruit and to not even touch the fruit (Eve's testimony about what God said to her), lastly we have the prohibition restated to Adam and Eve in a way that stops them from eating from any tree that did not have fruit with seeds (God's direct words again). There are three different ways then that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is forbidden to Adam and Eve. Two of the three have a direct warning that death will result if they ate.

I don't see three places Cheryl, I only see two: Gen. 2:17, 3:3. Where is the third place?

[OopsMartin]

I think there a another possibility here that the context, and other passages that address this passage might indicate. So far, 2 options have been offered:

1. Eve was lying - that she purposefully misrepresented what God said

2. That Eve had another unrecorded conversation with God, where He added the stipulation not to touch the fruit

There is a 3rd possiblity. Namely that Eve was beginning to show signs of being deceived

The serpent (Satan) begins his conversation with Eve with the following statement:

Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You can't eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Genesis 3:1 HCSB

Notice that Satan is attacking God's character here. He adds to the restriction that God gave, making him seem unreasonable. Eve's reponse, it seems to me, indicates that she has begun to buy into this deception. She is not willing to go as far as the serpent, but she has begun to see God as stingy. She adds to the restriction. In other words Eve was not lying, she was falling prey to deception. She had started down th path of seeing God as being more strict than He really was. Not only could they not eat, they were not even allowed to touch. God was holding out on them (Thats what Satan wanted her to believe)

It also shows that she had begun to focus on the tree. When people begin to focus on something that they know is bad for them, there initial response is always to over react, then to focus unduly on the object (which Eve did in 3:6)

The idea that Eve was deceived is affirmed all through out scripture.

So I think Eve was not lying. She was a victim of deception.

So you are saying that part of her having been deceived was adding to God's word?

Yes, that is a very common reaction. When one is deceived, they begin to put words into God's mouth (or take them out in some cases). Eve was not lying to the serpent (who was her audience in this passage). She was responding to the serpents attemtp at deception. And Eve's adding to God's prohibition seems to me to indicate that the deception process had already begun

But Erich, how could she be deceived by the serpent before the serpents started weaving his deception to her? The serpents deception started AFTER she explained what God had said.

First question: "has God said.....

Eve's answer: "God has said"......

No deception there, only a probbing question to which Eve answer yes God said.

The deception begins: "You wil NOT surely die" .........

It was the conversation after those words wherein the woman was deceived and convinced to disobey God's command. There was nothing before the statement "you will not surely die" that would convince the woman. First the serpent needed to know what information she had before he could know how to twist it to his purposes.

[inhistime]

So we have God giving his prohibition in three different ways. First of all he told Adam not to eat of the fruit (direct words of God's used), then he told Eve after her creation not to eat of the fruit and to not even touch the fruit (Eve's testimony about what God said to her), lastly we have the prohibition restated to Adam and Eve in a way that stops them from eating from any tree that did not have fruit with seeds (God's direct words again). There are three different ways then that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is forbidden to Adam and Eve. Two of the three have a direct warning that death will result if they ate.

I don't see three places Cheryl, I only see two: Gen. 2:17, 3:3. Where is the third place?

The third place that the prohibition is given is Gen. 1:29. Here they are told they can eat the fruit from every tree except for what? Since we know that there is one tree that they are forbidden to eat from and Gen. 1:29 says they can eat from every tree that has fruit that bears seeds, we then can know that they are forbidden to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because we know it must not have fruit that yields seeds. Make sense?

[None]

I think there a another possibility here that the context, and other passages that address this passage might indicate. So far, 2 options have been offered:

1. Eve was lying - that she purposefully misrepresented what God said

2. That Eve had another unrecorded conversation with God, where He added the stipulation not to touch the fruit

There is a 3rd possiblity. Namely that Eve was beginning to show signs of being deceived

The serpent (Satan) begins his conversation with Eve with the following statement:

Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You can't eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Genesis 3:1 HCSB

Notice that Satan is attacking God's character here. He adds to the restriction that God gave, making him seem unreasonable. Eve's reponse, it seems to me, indicates that she has begun to buy into this deception. She is not willing to go as far as the serpent, but she has begun to see God as stingy. She adds to the restriction. In other words Eve was not lying, she was falling prey to deception. She had started down th path of seeing God as being more strict than He really was. Not only could they not eat, they were not even allowed to touch. God was holding out on them (Thats what Satan wanted her to believe)

It also shows that she had begun to focus on the tree. When people begin to focus on something that they know is bad for them, there initial response is always to over react, then to focus unduly on the object (which Eve did in 3:6)

The idea that Eve was deceived is affirmed all through out scripture.

So I think Eve was not lying. She was a victim of deception.

That makes so much sense - and nor does it require that one has a degree in Hebrew grammar to understand what God would have us learn from the passage. It's what I've been trying to express but never quite managing. Thanks for explaining so simply yet succintly. I really appreciate it. It's going down as a margin note in my Bible.

In Jesus,

Ruth

I'm also keeping that beautiful analogy to my files. Well said, EricH.

[EricH]

Here the prohibition is given in a different way since they were both given the freedom to eat from every tree except the tree which did not have fruit yielding seed. In these words from God himself, we can understand that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not have fruit that yields seed. So God gave the prohibition to both of them in a different manner. Did he also give the prohibition to Eve using words that told her not to touch the fruit? She said he did and we should believe her. Why should we believe her? Because the deception had not yet started.

This is where I interpret the facts differently than you. Satan's initial statment to Eve is a statement of deception in genesis 3:1. The context of the passage paints a picture of Eve decending into deception from that point on. I just don't see how your interpretation fits the text, the context, or the logic of the passage. For me you are largely arguing from silence.

[EricH]

I think there a another possibility here that the context, and other passages that address this passage might indicate. So far, 2 options have been offered:

1. Eve was lying - that she purposefully misrepresented what God said

2. That Eve had another unrecorded conversation with God, where He added the stipulation not to touch the fruit

There is a 3rd possiblity. Namely that Eve was beginning to show signs of being deceived

The serpent (Satan) begins his conversation with Eve with the following statement:

Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You can't eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Genesis 3:1 HCSB

Notice that Satan is attacking God's character here. He adds to the restriction that God gave, making him seem unreasonable. Eve's reponse, it seems to me, indicates that she has begun to buy into this deception. She is not willing to go as far as the serpent, but she has begun to see God as stingy. She adds to the restriction. In other words Eve was not lying, she was falling prey to deception. She had started down th path of seeing God as being more strict than He really was. Not only could they not eat, they were not even allowed to touch. God was holding out on them (Thats what Satan wanted her to believe)

It also shows that she had begun to focus on the tree. When people begin to focus on something that they know is bad for them, there initial response is always to over react, then to focus unduly on the object (which Eve did in 3:6)

The idea that Eve was deceived is affirmed all through out scripture.

So I think Eve was not lying. She was a victim of deception.

So you are saying that part of her having been deceived was adding to God's word?

Yes, that is a very common reaction. When one is deceived, they begin to put words into God's mouth (or take them out in some cases). Eve was not lying to the serpent (who was her audience in this passage). She was responding to the serpents attemtp at deception. And Eve's adding to God's prohibition seems to me to indicate that the deception process had already begun

But Erich, how could she be deceived by the serpent before the serpents started weaving his deception to her? The serpents deception started AFTER she explained what God had said.

First question: "has God said.....

Eve's answer: "God has said"......

No deception there, only a probbing question to which Eve answer yes God said.

The deception begins: "You wil NOT surely die" .........

It was the conversation after those words wherein the woman was deceived and convinced to disobey God's command. There was nothing before the statement "you will not surely die" that would convince the woman. First the serpent needed to know what information she had before he could know how to twist it to his purposes.

Not following your logic here. Satan misstates God in the form of a question. It is a method of deception. It seems to me that you have arbitrarity assigned the deception to beginning later