Who is Israel?

August 3, 2007

QUOTE
shiloh357
Because the next step in your "theology" is that you establish that the Church is "spiritual Israel" and that biblical Israel is discarded and permanently removed by God never to be heard from again.

Of course you are once again erecting your straw-man just as you have done in the past. No one is saying that God has

August 3, 2007

QUOTE
firehill:
Paul explaines that now all have become SONS of God and therefore hiers IF they are in Christ. quote That may be true, but that in no way argues for an abrogation of Jewish/Gentile distinctives.

Shilo:
That I can see bu by the same token, such doesn't abrogate If in Christ then one is a SON and IF one is a SON then one is an heir.

Duh... I am not trying abrogate or negate that issue. That is my point. You are raising a nonissue.

Oh but you are negating this issue if you consider Christ not the seed...

Huh???

QUOTE
The fact that all are sons does not mean that Jews cease being Jews. Besides, Jesus himself, is still a Jew.

Everyone can still be who they want to be. Well I can't speak for ressurected DNA. The Jewish people do not have THAT kind of DNA, and so I don't know exactly what Christ's resurrected body is made of.

Jesus is prophesied to one day sit on the throne of David. Only a physical descedent from the tribe of Judah can sit on David's throne, so Jesus is still a Jew from the tribe of Judah.

QUOTE
firehill:
Race, gender nor social status never played a part to begin with in one's salvation for those who joined Israel!

Shilo: What you seem to fail to understand is that Paul was refuting arguments that had been planted by heretical Judaizers who made those kinds of issues relevant.

WHERE ELSE where THOSE SPECIFIC ISSUES of race, gender, or socail status mentioned in Galatians, huh??? They weren't because they were NOT a part of the bigger context.

They are very much a part of the greater context. You don't have a clue about the context. It is clear from your responses. In fact, I don't really even know what the point you are even driving at is.

nebula · August 3, 2007

I was responding to nebulas idea that Chiristians may have the ideas the when a Jew is born-agian that they are now joining the Christian religion.

This is what I hear some people saying.

Then she says vise versa that some people think the Jews are coming back into THEIR OWN religion.

No, I did not say "coming back to their own religion" - I said coming to the fullness of their religion. This is what Paul did when he saw the light (no pun intended). He came into the fullness of what his faith professed and proclaimed. Do you disagree with this?

Jedi4Yahweh · August 3, 2007

Shiloh357 wrote: I did not say that Gentiles are not tied spiritually to Israel. I said that the Gentile believers are not "Israel," spiritually or otherwise. They are one subset, one part of Israel, but they do not comprise any entity called "spiritual Israel." Evidently, you have not been reading what I have written.

Oh so now you say that Gentiles are tied to spiritually Israel like a subsection of Israel....but they are not really apart of Israel. I guess Gentiles have green-cards and are not real citizens. What anti-gentile book did you dig that up from.

I have been to some of these JEWISH/christian synagogues that teach the separation theology and its just as false as the replacement theology. All it does is divide believers. The Church is the body of Christ both Jew and Gentilte....period. We may look differant, have differant socal status, my live in differant countries and may worship in differant fashions but we are still one body and equal in Christ.

You say that Gentiles believers are only equal to a certain degree. This is not true in the eyes of God. Its not that hard to except if just believe what the bible says....believe me Paul was not speaking metaphorically, its not some hidden code in the bible. God does not distinguish man from women, Jew from Gentile, slave from free we are all equal in the eyes of God as believers.

August 3, 2007

So what are we missing???

Storm Rising

Prince Of Peace Returning

Jerusalem Rejoicing

Israel Restored

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 65:18-25

Maranatha!

Pray For The Peace Of Jerusalem

Love, Joe

Jedi4Yahweh · August 3, 2007

No, I did not say "coming back to their own religion" - I said coming to the fullness of their religion. This is what Paul did when he saw the light (no pun intended). He came into the fullness of what his faith professed and proclaimed. Do you disagree with this?

No...i don't agree at all. Paul was a faithful Jew and served the law and his religion to the fullest, well until Jesus came into his life. Paul did a 180...He didn't become a better Jew he became a new man in Christ, unlike the rest of those who claimed to be Jews. Those whom he formally served with were now out to kill him. So no he did not come to the fullness of his faith because he had no faith until this point in his life. He didn't become a better Jew he became a completely different person in Christ. He was disowned by the people of his religion. He nolonger was out to persecute Chrisitians but now out to server with them.

nebula · August 3, 2007

What I meant was a Jew who didn't believe - when they actually come to belief -

Then, do they join into our faith? Or do they come into the fullness of their faith?

(I believe they come into the fullness of their faith. )

Shalom Nebula,

There is no "our faith" or "their faith." Faith is in G-d and His Messiah.

I think you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say.

Have you not heard people saying that when a Jew comes to believe in Jesus that they are now a Christian and no longer a Jew? That's what I was referring to with the first statement.

By the second, I meant is not faith in Messiah Yeshua the fullness of the faith of their fathers? (Does that make more sense?)

nebula · August 3, 2007

No, I did not say "coming back to their own religion" - I said coming to the fullness of their religion. This is what Paul did when he saw the light (no pun intended). He came into the fullness of what his faith professed and proclaimed. Do you disagree with this?

No...i don't agree at all. Paul was a faithful Jew and served the law and his religion to the fullest, well until Jesus came into his life. Paul did a 180...He didn't become a better pharasee he became a new man in Christ, unlike the rest of those who claimed to be Jews. Those whom he formally served with were now out to kill him. So no he did not come to the fullness of his faith because he had no faith until this point in his life. He didn't become a better Jew he became a completely different person in Christ. He was disowned by the people of his religion.

So, you are saying Paul was no longer a Jew?

firehill · August 3, 2007

firehill:
WHERE ELSE where THOSE SPECIFIC ISSUES of race, gender, or socail status mentioned in Galatians, huh??? They weren't because they were NOT a part of the bigger context.

Shilo:
They are very much a part of the greater context. You don't have a clue about the context. It is clear from your responses. In fact, I don't really even know what the point you are even driving at is.

Then provide a context that speaks of a division between all three, jew/gentile, slave/free and male/female. Where does Paul speak of race, social status, and gender in response to 'arguments that had been planted by heretical Judaizers who made those kinds of issues relevant'?

Jedi4Yahweh · August 3, 2007

No, I did not say "coming back to their own religion" - I said coming to the fullness of their religion. This is what Paul did when he saw the light (no pun intended). He came into the fullness of what his faith professed and proclaimed. Do you disagree with this?

No...i don't agree at all. Paul was a faithful Jew and served the law and his religion to the fullest, well until Jesus came into his life. Paul did a 180...He didn't become a better pharasee he became a new man in Christ, unlike the rest of those who claimed to be Jews. Those whom he formally served with were now out to kill him. So no he did not come to the fullness of his faith because he had no faith until this point in his life. He didn't become a better Jew he became a completely different person in Christ. He was disowned by the people of his religion.

So, you are saying Paul was no longer a Jew?

Not saying that at all. I am saying he didnt become a better Jew he became a son of God.