Catholicism Examined

[stevehut]

No, the Greek does not mean to immerse in water.

Sorry, I generally don't like to talk like this, but...

This is simply an ignorant position. You're trying awfully hard to "prove" a pre-existing opinion.

There, I'm better now. I promise to never be that bold again.

[stevehut]

I love the book of james... hey wait

Martin Luther didn't. He tore it out of his Bible, because he thought it was too works-oriented.

But then again, he was also Catholic...so I think that ship had already sailed.

[jmwhalen]

Stevehut writes:

"Sorry, I generally don't like to talk like this, but...

This is simply an ignorant position. You're trying awfully hard to "prove" a pre-existing opinion.

There, I'm better now. I promise to never be that bold again. "

________________________________________

Ignorant position? I am not trying to prove a pre-existing position. I studied this issue for 6 months after I was saved, and saw every scriptural reference to "baptism", or "washings", in the Bible.

People assume baptism means "water". I can show you other passages where there is no water. There was no water on the cross. The basic idea is IDENTIFICATION for the purpose of change in condition/identity. Did you know that in biblical times, to dye a piece of cloth, you would "baptize" it, "overwhelm" it, "cover" it, in a vat of dye. The cloth would now have a "change in condition", a new "identity". The element was dye here. Look at:

"And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea...." 1 Cor. 10:2

They were identified with Moses. Also note Exodus 14:16, 22="dry ground", Exodus 14:29,15:19="dry land". No water!

Ephesians 4:5 is clear that there is one baptism today, and that is a spiritual baptism where a person is identified in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and is identified into the Body of Christ-all by the Holy Spirit(notice the Holy Spirit is the Baptizer, not the Lord Jesus Christ). You can get "immersed", "dunked", "sprinkled" until the tadpoles know your social security number, but that will not save you.

Ever notice:

"From thirty years old and upward even until fifty years old, all that enter into the host, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation." Numbers 4:3-see 4:23,4:30, 4:35, 4:39, 4:47, 8:25........

=Age priests served

This explains:

"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age...." Luke 3:23

"Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?" John 8:57

"And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." Exodus 19:6

This explains all the Israelites at the Jordan being "baptized"-this was there intiation rite into being a "kingdom of priests".

___________________________

Obviously, this is a subject where a few comments by me in a post format do not do it justice. I ask that you study the OT to see that baptism was a Jewish ritual washing-it was not "new" in the NT.

In Christ,

John Whalen

[Shelby]

Amen John!

Couldn't have said it better myself. God bless you for seeking knowledge regarding your questions. I love it when peope seek and find and share!

GBU

[jmwhalen]

Shelby:

Thank you for the edification. I am just one former beggar, now a saint and an heir of God(Romans 8:17, Galatians 4:7) by the grace of God, trying to show the lost "where the food is"-the Lord Jesus Christ.

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

[Guest mcm42]

The basic idea is IDENTIFICATION for the purpose of change in condition/identity. Did you know that in biblical times, to dye a piece of cloth, you would "baptize" it, "overwhelm" it, "cover" it, in a vat of dye. The cloth would now have a "change in condition", a new "identity". The element was dye here

Did you pull this from Tony Evans? Just curious. Can you tell me where you got this info? I've heard it before but only from Tony Evans and I've often wondered how accurate that stance was.

Also... Just to add a thought, Baptism showed an association to the leader baptizing. It said, I no longer associate with that, I'm now associated with this. It shows a new commitment. Hence why Jesus would be doing the baptizing of the Spirit...

This is purely my thoughts, so feel free to attack them freely.

[jmwhalen]

mcm 42 writes:

"Did you pull this from Tony Evans? Just curious. Can you tell me where you got this info? I've heard it before but only from Tony Evans and I've often wondered how accurate that stance was.Also... Just to add a thought, Baptism showed an association to the leader baptizing. It said, I no longer associate with that, I'm now associated with this. It shows a new commitment. Hence why Jesus would be doing the baptizing of the Spirit...This is purely my thoughts, so feel free to attack them freely."

______________________

Thnks for the question:

No-after I was saved, I began to notice things that just "didn't make sense".

The examples cited previously, i.e., "where is the water"? Consider this:

In Acts 2:41, 3000 were baptized "the same day". Where did they get all that water? The Jordan River was 30 miles away, i.e., all day journey would not allow for all baptized "the same day". What is "going on here?!"

Exodus 29:4 priests are "washed in water"

29:7:7 oil(represents the Holy Spirit") is put upon priest's head

29:20 blood upon the priest

Then our great God and Saviour, Lord Jesus Christ, arrives at the Jordan, he is "washed in water"(baptized), the Holy Spirit comes upon Him(oil), and 3 years later he is "baptized" in blood at the cross(Mt. 20:22,23; Mk. 10:38,39;Luke 12:50).

I have numerous books/articles on the subject. Let me know if you would like more info.

In Christ,

John Whalen

[stevehut]

I studied this issue for 6 months after I was saved, and saw every scriptural reference to "baptism", or "washings", in the Bible.

Studied this for 6 months? Shouldn't take that long. Try a Greek lexicon. Baptidzo means to immerse in water. Period. Many non-biblical writers of the same era used the same word to indicate the sinking of ships.

Yes, the Bible sometimes uses the word in other contexts, figuratively. Just like any other language that has figurative expressions. But that doesn't change the literal meaning of the word.

[stevehut]

In Acts 2:41,  3000 were  baptized "the same day".  Where did they get all that water?  The Jordan River was 30 miles away, i.e., all day journey would not allow for all baptized "the same day".

Consider this:

These events happened in Jerusalem. First-century Jerusalem was a very modern city for its time, with a sophisticated system of aqueducts, pools, and cisterns. Synagogues were built near natural sources of water, which would feed a pool called a miqveh, a pool that was used for ritual purification purposes. Under rabbinic tradition, such a pool would hold about 75 gallons of water, enough to allow for complete immersion. Many private homes had them as well.

Altogether, at least 150 such pools have been identified by modern archaeologists, which can be dated to the lifetime of the Apostles. 3000 divided by 150 pools miqveh's (not counting the other pools) comes out to about 20 people each. Since it only takes a few seconds to immerse someone, this certainly sounds plausible.

Remember, the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" had already taken place by the time that Peter told the people to get baptized. So the command of Peter was something different from that.

A form of "baptism" was used by the Jews of this period, for various purposes. For example Gentile converts to Judaism were routinely immersed in a pool of water as a symbol of "new life". So these pools were already busy indeed.

This information is out there, for anyone who's interested.

[artsylady]

What about the criminal who was saved by Jesus as they hung on the cross together. 

There's a word for that. It's called divine prerogative. Actually, Jesus forgave the sins of many people, not just that one guy. If Jesus in the flesh says you're forgiven, then you're forgiven.

My point is that he forgave him and accepted him into heaven immediately. No works were ever done. Proof that works do not get you into heaven. It's the heart that the Lord sees.