Catholicism Examined

[JesusisGod2]

No, it's because they are trying to do enough works, because that's what they think matters just doing works nothing else.  You don't have to believe in Jesus just do what he said.  Wait, was that stupid?

Hi Douay,

I have a couple quick questions, I hope you dont mind answering them.

Is this what you believe as well?,

and if so what constitutes enough works to you?

Also what constitutes works that are worthy to be considered by our Lord?

In Jesus,

Kevin

[jmwhalen]

Stevehut writes:"Studied this for 6 months? Shouldn't take that long. Try a Greek lexicon. Baptidzo means to immerse in water. Period. Many non-biblical writers of the same era used the same word to indicate the sinking of ships.

Yes, the Bible sometimes uses the word in other contexts, figuratively. Just like any other language that has figurative expressions. But that doesn't change the literal meaning of the word."

____________________________________

Thank you for the condecending comments.

" Try a Greek lexicon."? I must assume you know Greek. "Thus saith the Greek".

"Shouldn't take that long". How right Paul was="puffed up". I am probably not as intelligent as you. Please tell all of us believers what an appropriate period of time should be in your expert opinion..

You "...added nothing...."(Galatians 2:6) to the understanding of the topic. I did reference the literal meaning. I understand what the literal meaning of "crucify" is, and I can understand when Paul says "I am crucified with Christ

[JesusisGod2]

Hi Jm,

I was under the assumption that they are talking about water as well when speaking about baptism. although I also agree it is speaking of the Spirit as well. In either case it speaks of total emersion either by water or by the Spirit.

Acts 1:5

for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Correct me if I am wrong, but here Jesus uses the same word for "baptized" and is used for both the water and the Spirit.

Now if this is the case, the if the word for Spirit "baptized" means to totally emersion or totally saturated in the spirit, then it also is what John did when he baptized. Jesus is not speaking of sprinkeling us in the Spirit.

Acts 2:38

Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Notice in this text that Peter is speaking of a baptizm that is different than that of the Holy Spirit. He says to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and you will recieve the Holy Spirit.

Peter is speaking again of water baptizm.

Acts 8:36

As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"

This same word "Baptized" is used again and is related to water, to totally immerse.

Acts 8:38

And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

Why would they have both went down into the water? wouldnt it have been easier to have filled a canteen or a cup or whatever they had in those days and dump the water over his head? I believe he was totally submerged in the water.

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[jmwhalen]

Kevin:

I agree. But there is one baptism today in the "dispensation of the grace of God"(Eph. 3:2), and that is spiritual baptism of Eph. 4:5(notice the 7 unities of Eph. 4:3-6) are all spiritual), by which we are baptized(identified) into the Body of Christ, and thus identified into the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Jewish baptism of water is not in operation today. My point was that people automatically assume water when they see the word. The idea is identification for the purposes of change in condition/change in identity.

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

[JesusisGod2]

Kevin:

I agree.  But there is one baptism today in the "dispensation of the grace of God"(Eph. 3:2), and that is spiritual baptism of Eph. 4:5(notice the 7 unities of Eph. 4:3-6) are all spiritual), by which we are baptized(identified) into the Body of Christ, and thus identified into the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.  The Jewish baptism of water is not in operation today.  My point was that people automatically assume water when they see the word.  The idea is identification for the purposes of change in condition/change in identity.

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

Hi John,

Gotcha! And on this I agree, water baptism is an act of obedience and not of salvation. It is the baptizm of the Spirit that identifies us with Christ.

Water baptizm is a proclamation of the identification to both ourselves and the world. I think I was misunderstanding your post a little -- forgive me for my intrusion

But let me ask this of you so that I am sure I understand what you mean.

Are you saying that we should not practice water baptism today?

I agree that it really isnt necessary for our salvation, but it is necessary as an act of obedience to God. And to me its really a difficult thing to understand why one would want to have one without having the other

Why would one not want to be baptized? Thats a question that puzzles me.

In Jesus

Kevin

[Douay]

Why would one not want to be baptized? Thats a question that puzzles me.

Aquaphobia.

[jmwhalen]

Kevin, you write:

"Gotcha! And on this I agree, water baptism is an act of obedience and not of salvation. It is the baptizm of the Spirit that identifies us with Christ.

Water baptizm is a proclamation of the identification to both ourselves and the world. I think I was misunderstanding your post a little -- forgive me for my intrusion But let me ask this of you so that I am sure I understand what you mean.

Are you saying that we should not practice water baptism today?

I agree that it really isnt necessary for our salvation, but it is necessary as an act of obedience to God. And to me its really a difficult thing to understand why one would want to have one without having the other

Why would one not want to be baptized? Thats a question that puzzles me.

In Jesus

Kevin"

__________________________________

The reason the Israelites were being baptized was they were commanded to by the Law of Moses as part their introduction rites as serving as a "kingdom of priest"(see previous post). I do hear the rationale for baptizing as an act of obedience. But we must understand that there is one baptism today(spiritual), we are not Israelites who are "priests". The Lord Jesus Christ gave his reason for it:

"And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness...." Mt. 3:15

To be consistent with the scriptures, the Lord Jesus Christ and those who "identified" with Him as the promised Messiah, the "kingdom of priests", were baptized to fulfil the righteous requirements of the law. In this dispensation of the grace of God, this is nort appropriate.

As I mentioned in a previous post, this subject deserves much more discussion than a board post avails. Let me know if you need more info via e-mail.

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

[JesusisGod2]

Why would one not want to be baptized? Thats a question that puzzles me.

Aquaphobia.

:sweating: :sweating: :sweating: :oww: :whistle: :tongue:

But on the serious side, you bring a good point!

[JesusisGod2]

As I mentioned in a previous post, this subject deserves much more discussion than a board post avails. Let me know if you need more info via e-mail.

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

Hi John,

This is a very interesting angle that you have here and I would be very interested in seeing where you are coming from.

So dont be surprised if I take you up on this offer.

God Bless

Kevin

[jmwhalen]

Douay writes:

"Why would one not want to be baptized? Thats a question that puzzles me."

Aquaphobia.

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And why not tithe(Mt. 23:23), "..show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them"(Mt. 8:4), be circumcized......Matthew, Mark, Luke, John-all "law ground".

Baptism was part of the righteous requirements of the law. We are not under the law, and this is not the program we are operating under today's "dispensation of the grace of God"(Eph 3:2). I'm "done" on baptism for now!

In Christ,

John M. Whalen