Is Salvation Predestined??

[Work in Progress]

Well, you seem to believe it is literal. Every man. Well, we know that not every man is enlightened, so , if you interpret it literally, as you are, then the Bible would contain a lie. People have died unsaved. According to you, Jesus came into the world and they were enlightened. Enlightened, but in hell? Doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, I learned a long time ago not to base any doctrine or theological beliefs one one verse.

[Guest mcm42]

OK,we'll leave it at that,but ask yourself, what does John 1:9 mean?

John 1:9 "the true light which enlightens everyone was coming into the world. He was made in the world and the world did not recieve him. yet the world did not know him. He came to his own and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him who believed in his name he gave the right to become children of God. who were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but of God."

I think these verses teach a Predestine Salvation, also I think it's clear here that even though the light enlightened "everyone" not "everyone" recieved him.

Hope this helps

[His son]

This is answerable if you will start with no opinion either way, and study all The Bible from Genesis to revelation, making a list for yourself of all The Scriptures that address salvation directly, and all the related issues, and it will become very clear to you that predestination is the result of God's foreknowledge of all of our freewill choices. It realy is that simple. And I say this because it was the only way I could resolve it for myself. That's why God tells us to meditate in His Word all The Time, and to pray always in The Spirit, that He sends The Holy Spirit to teach you. I was on the opposite side of this issue for a long time, and was so frustrated with the fact that Christians are supposed to show The World a bond of love that is so strong that nothing can penetrate it, and that they were so far apart on this issue, that I began to wonder about the whole issue of Christianity. Then I remembered the frustration I was under when I met Christ, and why He came. All I did was call out God Help me. Just like with my salvation He did. Don't in anywise consider what men say until you find your answers in The Bible, as revealed by The Holy Spirit. He will not fail you, and you will know that you know that you know. This is going to take some time but if eternal life in His presence is important take the time to dig up that treasure. Some one asked is it possible both are true the answer is yes up to the point that some say once saved we don't have the freewill to take ourselves out. That is the part that won't wash with God's Word.

[Work in Progress]

It realy is that simple.

Gotta disagree with you. This doctrine is the last thing I would call "simple".

Not to mention that

study all The Bible from Genesis to revelation, making a list for yourself of all The Scriptures that address salvation directly, and all the related issues,

-that is hardly "simple"!

Thanks for the suggestion, but I spent years believing this "age of accountability" and "you can lose your salvation" thing and know that, after years of study I would never go back to believing any such thing is true, according to Scripture. Not the Almighty I worship, nope.

[Guest mcm42]

and it will become very clear to you that predestination is the result of God's foreknowledge of all of our freewill choices. It realy is that simple

Just wondering, do you mean that God sort of looks through time to see what choices we will make and then chooses those who will choose him?

I considered this view for some time. It was totally dismantled in a book by R.C. Sproul call "Loved By God". Here we see numerous flaws with the veiw. The first was that God's choosing depends upon what we do, or our Choices. In Romans 9 we see that God chose Jacob and Esau "before they had done good or evil".

Second it supposes that God's choosing is dependant upon Man. If you believe in total depravity (which maybe you don't) this is a serious problem because God would look through the corridor of time and no one would choose him!

The idea of God's choosing can be frustrating, but the fact is we are all guilty already. God does not owe us anything. Fair would be to send us all to hell. However, After we've turned God away, He chooses some of us for Salvation. You may cry out "it isn't fair" and indeed it is not fair, we who are chosen deserve to go to hell. Thank God for His grace! That he was merciful on any at all.

Now, you may argue "God can't choose some for heaven and some for Hell" I say first that we have already chosen Hell, and are much deserving, and Paul answers this question in Romans 9

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20  On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21  Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22  What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23  And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Hope this helps

[Work in Progress]

MCM, Sproul is an excellent, non-flake teacher who is easy to understand and Biblically sound. Glad to see you mention his name.

[Guest mcm42]

Sproul is an excellent, non-flake teacher who is easy to understand and Biblically sound. Glad to see you mention his name

Yes he is, If anyone wants to read up on this issue, and others I would Suggest Loved by God by R.C. Sproul (chapters 5 and 6 specifically).

Some other good materials are Books by John MacArthur Jr. (commentaries or the Gospel According to Jesus and According to the Apostles)

And I also read a little of C.H. Spurgeon (See Spurgeon on the Holy Spirit Chapter 2- The Necessity of the Holy Spirit) who doesn't totally agree with me on this particular issue, but he preaches and Teaches in such a pure, straight forward way, that digs deep into your soul and leaves the wounds open, so that they take time, thought, and effort to heal. You won't walk away from a Spurgeon writing untouched, i hope.

I love each one of these writer particularly for their insight and desire to stay true to Scripture. And to be honest they do very much hold the same insights that I do as far as approach to studying scripture, and making it known.

Hope these materials help...

[His son]

2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Pet 1:20

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Sam 14:14

14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.

Job 37:24

24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

Reply

Prov 3:5-8

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. [This would include other mens understanding.]

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. [Nothing like the healthy doctrines of God, for ones peace of mind]

(KJV)

Heb 8:11

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

(KJV) [

I Jn 2:27

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

(KJV)

We don't need anything but The Bible, and The Holy Spirit. Too bad some just can't accept what God says.

1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace

(KJV)

Predestination=God's foreknowledge of all our freewill choices.

[Guest mcm42]

We don't need anything but The Bible, and The Holy Spirit. Too bad some just can't accept what God says.

Good Then, I see no reason to listen to your words, for not even you would instruct me to listen to you! So since you believe this, it would do you well not to write anything else on these boards, unless it be Scripture. For if you truly believe that we don't need anything but the Bible and the Holy Spirit... You are niether of these so I would presume you would have no reason then to do any writing beyond Scripture.!

If this statement is true, then why all the pastors and teachers? Why go to church, in fact why do we Listen to anything but the Scripture, 24/7? Mainly because this statement is untrue. We are to learn from one another, as demonstrated by the preaching of the Word. How will men hear if we do not preach? Or maybe we should just be going around reading the Bible Outloud!

Naturally I agree that all of our beliefs should be Scriptural, but to say this is the only place we are to learn from is simply silly. How did Paul learn to build tents! I doubt he learned that from the Scriptures. How dare he learn something that wasn't in the Bible!

Let's stop being silly.

As far as forknowledge... God Forknew his creation otherwise he could not elect them, for they would have no existance. Nowhere does it say we are elected according to our foreknown works.

And For Scriptures...

Eph 1-

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will"

Romans 9-

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, "

John 6-

"44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "

John 6-

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father"

John 10-

26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand"

2 Timothy-

"9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

This may help a little.

[Guest LadyC]

I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live." (NKJ:  Duet 30:19)

"And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."  (NKJ:  Joshua 25:15)

"Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'" (NKJ: Ezekiel 33:11)

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (NKJ:  1Tim 2:3-4)

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." (NKJ: 2Pet:3:9)

God does not pre-elect only certain individuals to be saved, or else the Bible is rendered absolute folly.

God doesn't want us to be disobedient. He doesn't want ANYone to perish. His Word says so. He wants every person ever born to come freely to Him. if you deny the concept of free will, then you have to conclude that God failed.

OR...

let's take israel as an example. God promised them the land of fruit and honey. but because they chose to disobey God, God punished them by making them wander in the desert for 40 years.

now, if God's foreknowledge indicates that they disobeyed them not of their own will, but of God's will, then that means that they didn't disobey God at all in the first place. they did exactly what God wanted them to do. so punishing them was just a cruel, vindictive, sadistic game He was playing with them just so He could derive pleasure in their suffering.

No wonder so many unbelievers think God is hateful! my goodness! if that's really the kind of God we serve, then i don't want any part of it! i have no desire at all to give God glory if He's that cruel! unfortunately, i guess i'm stuck, i have no choice but to glorify such an evil creator.

Praise God that He is NOT what that doctrine makes Him out to be.