Is Salvation Predestined??

[Guest mcm42]

it's safe to say we're both leaning heavily on our own understanding of the same scriptures, whouldn't you agree?

That is safe for me

in the last days He'll probably smack us all around for this anyway J/K

[Guest LadyC]

oh my, it's one thing for you and i to agree on other topics, but to actually agree on anything regarding THIS topic, wow! this day needs to go down in history!!!

[Guest mcm42]

High five...

Yeah... One not one

TWO THUMBS UP :t:

[Guest sanctification]

JohnS,

If God's choice of the elect is unconditional, does this rule out human responsibility? Paul asks and answers that very question in Romans 9:19-20. He says God's choice of the elect is an act of mercy. Left to themselves, even the elect would persist in sin and be lost, because they are taken from the same fallen lump of clay as the rest of humanity. God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost--because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God.

I cannot tell you how much this has blessed me! I did not understand this.

Two years ago I began to understand predestination, and I will tell you, it just killed my prayer life. I did not understand how I could pray for the salvation of those lost around me, if God had already made choices about who would be saved. I don't want to pray outside of God's will! I want Him to be glorified, so how can I pray for a certain individual to be saved when that may not be His plan? Upon what can my faith and trust stand that He has heard me and answered me?

And if I cannot make a difference in whom will be saved, then how can I make a difference in anything else that we should pray for???

I need super amounts of help.

I have been praying anyway and I still see Him answering my prayers, so I have not lost faith. I just don't understand it, and when I don't understand it, there is little confidence in my faith and requests.

If God predestines, chooses those who will be saved, and freewill has nothing to do with it because we all choose to reject Him, it is therefore completely in God's court to save someone. And if it is in God's court, then how do my requests in the name of Jesus do anything of importance?

[Cerran]

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

I see this used over and over in different contexts, anyone want to take a stab at trying to explain it? I read this and find it could be interpreted in many different ways and in fact this says something very different than the original text IMO.

Prophecy implies that the scripture as a whole is meant to be interpreted and dissected except for the parts that explain future events which should be taken literaly. At least that is how I'm reading it.

Maybe this belongs in a new thread.

[His son]

Thats where your problem is good men will not get you to The Truth, The Bible tells you that The Holy Spirit will do that

How about if I say the the Holy Spirit has taught me and Guided me into my conclusion, and I feel that it is as accurate, and Biblical, if not more, in fact much more than yours. I think it does more justice to God, and less justice to man. The way the Holy Spirit has taught me it should be.

And because He has put a call on my life since He got me back on the narrow path to proclaim His Truth everywhere He tells me to and this is one of those places I will be on here exposing that false doctrine for what it is as long as it is being proclaimed here.

And I will say the same to you.

You have studied and come to a conclusion... I have studied and come to a conclusion... they are different... So be it.

Because you promote a false doctrine OSAS that came from man your confirmation came from satans imitation of The Holy Spirit, the same as we all did who have been involved in that deception. But The total of Bible Doctrine on The issue of salvation, as a process, and our ability to take ourselves out of that process will not support that Doctrine, with out man interpreting it to fit the doctrine and taking it out of context of the total of Biblical Doctrine on The issue.

[Guest mcm42]

Because you promote a false doctrine OSAS that came from man your confirmation came from satans imitation of The Holy Spirit, the same as we all did who have been involved in that deception. But The total of Bible Doctrine on The issue of salvation, as a process, and our ability to take ourselves out of that process will not support that Doctrine, with out man interpreting it to fit the doctrine and taking it out of context of the total of Biblical Doctrine on The issue.

How can you be so sure that your understanding isn't a false imitation of the Holy Spirit? How is it that you tell the difference?

I believe that the Bible (as a whole) teaches a predestined, preplanned salvation, and life for us all... (i.e. Prophecy!)

His Son, At this point in your life is it possible for you to be incorrect? I mean seeing as you've studied the entire Word, You have no "imitation Spirit" working in you. Boy you must even go so far as to say you won't ever be incorrect again!

[Shelby]

I cannot tell you how much this has blessed me! I did not understand this.

Two years ago I began to understand predestination, and I will tell you, it just killed my prayer life. I did not understand how I could pray for the salvation of those lost around me, if God had already made choices about who would be saved. I don't want to pray outside of God's will! I want Him to be glorified, so how can I pray for a certain individual to be saved when that may not be His plan? Upon what can my faith and trust stand that He has heard me and answered me?

And if I cannot make a difference in whom will be saved, then how can I make a difference in anything else that we should pray for???

I need super amounts of help.

I have been praying anyway and I still see Him answering my prayers, so I have not lost faith. I just don't understand it, and when I don't understand it, there is little confidence in my faith and requests.

If God predestines, chooses those who will be saved, and freewill has nothing to do with it because we all choose to reject Him, it is therefore completely in God's court to save someone. And if it is in God's court, then how do my requests in the name of Jesus do anything of importance?

Sanctification,

Thank you so much for your post. I have been on this board saying similar things. Be confident, know that God does hear your prayers and he will answer them. Keep the faith. God will reward your faithfulness to Him.

Here is where I think things get mixed up. Wordage, picking words out of one scripture and basing a belief on that. Continue to read God's word as a whole and he will reveal to you through the Holy Spirit his will. This is how i can explain it, but know I am human, and I have studied this and prayed about it, but this is my understanding.

Predestination is - when God makes the decision about what will happen. The choice is His, not ours. We are forced to do what he has decided. (just a definition I do not hold this belief)

Foreknowledge is - when we make the decision but God already knows what my choice is. The fact that God already knows what my decision is going to be does not take away my free will choice.

Remember when God was asked what His name was He said "I AM." He is omnipresent and exists in the past, present and future all at once and in all places. This concept is difficult to wrap our human minds around, but it is what I understood from my theology classes in seminary and through personal study as well.

Thus Jesus could know that Judas would betray Him without taking away Judas' choice (or Judas' responsibility for that choice). God's knowledge that Judas would end up in Hell, doesn't mean that God predestined him to go there.

Having said the above, I realize that this is a discussion where many Christians disagree. Please accept my offering in the loving spirit in which it was shared.

[Guest mcm42]

I would disagree with your definition of Forknowledge and Predestination

Pre-Determine- Something is determined to happen prior to it's happening. (what happens now can not be changed)

Forknowledge- Something is known to happen prior to it's happening. (what happens now, still can not be changed)

In Forknowledge, choice is not given back to the person. This is an assumption.

Suppose you know something is going to happen, if you know it's going to happen, then it is predetermined. Otherwise you didn't "know" it was going to happen.

Truth is God can't "know" something prior to it being "determined".

I know 2+2=4 because it has already been determined that 2+2=4.

The idea that God "forknew our choices" indirectly shows that he first "determined" what they would be. Otherwise he couldn't know them! And the second he "KNEW THEM" they could not be changed, therefore they were determined.

the two are pretty inseperable as far as I see it. If God "forknows" you choices, then they were determined at the point of his "knowing". And since that apparently occured "before it actually happened" it was then determined before-hand. Hence, it is predetermined.

God's knowledge demands his Predetermination, and God's predetermination demands his Forknowledge. Either way, the decision was made before it actually is happening now, hence the choice is "predetermined".

If you make a choice, Then God allowed it, and it must have been both known and determined before you made that choice. You will end up, where God both knew and Predestined you to end up... if he knew you would end up their, then it was determined prior to your getting there, hence it was predetermined.

God's knowledge that Judas would end up in Hell, doesn't mean that God predestined him to go there

Supposing God knows Judas will go to hell, it is then already determined, because God can't be wrong, so then it is predetermined that Judas would go to hell.

I hope that makes sense.

[Shelby]

I disagree with you mcm. I believe in your definition of foreknowledge is your view. Like the post said, God is not bound by time. You and I will never agree on this issue as we have proven on other forums. Maybe you can work on your wordage of your posts they come off very condescending and "know-it-all-ish". Take time to pray and seek God's counsel before you make statements.

Spoken in love.

Shelby