VOM

[None]

When God begins to call a person to Him, satan and his demons begin to attack that person right away. They flood you with so many lies it could make your head spin. Seeds planted in childhood will be used in combination to these lies to urge their views. The biggest lie they tell is the lie about Jesus and who He is. They will bring this up continuously because their main concern is to get you into Hell with them.(Muslim religion grew from someone giving in to the demented views offered by demons.) But if you accept Jesus for who He is He will save you from the doom meant for them. This ticks them off, you can imagine. They will never quit, not until your last breath. They have no power if you truly believe they have no power so long as you have Jesus. Jesus is so much stronger than them. You can find rest through Jesus if you truly love Him, accept His atonement for your sins and live for Him. He keeps us safe this way. I pray you find comfort in His arms.

So maybe the fit I see between part of Revelation 12 and Revelation 13 is not a current actual fulfillment of these Scriptures?Not saying it is or isn't. Some say The Tribulation doesn't start till after The Rapture. But...

Regarding Jesus and suffering "They have no power if...". These are some of the Scriptures that I believe may apply:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

...

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

...

far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

You've got part of a Psalm(Psalms 22:1) in that last part of your post. I believe that when Jesus said those words on the cross He was referring to that Psalm because that Psalm was referring to Him and what He had just done. Every word out of His mouth was in perfect timing and had perfect meaning. Are you asking if we're to suffer? Mankind has been suffering since the Fall from the Garden of Eden. Anyone who tries to follow God and His ways suffers for it. Temporarily.

If you think about it, Revelation can be applied to a Christian's whole lifespan, so can the Bible, in it's entirety. Life begins with our mother's pain(God's hard work and love) and produces something beautiful and pure, a baby(Adam and Eve and Earth) and then we grow and learn and go through trials and tribulations, we mess up, and eventually God calls us back to Him. This is also a painful process because we have to battle to get to Him. Does God not deliver(Rapture) when a women travails?

Yes re Psalm 22. Please explain your post re "They have no power if..." in light of the Scriptures I gave re Jesus. He was forsaken. Ron...

"they have no power if..." meaning the more power you believe demons or sin have the more power you give them.

And Jesus wasn't "forsaken" in the way some people think. His last words on the cross were "it is finished", the last part of the Psalm, which explained the statement "why hast thou forsaken me", the first part of that Psalm. That whole Psalm describes what had just taken place and why. He spoke those verses because His followers would later write them down and the reader or hearer would be lead by the Holy Spirit to know this.

[ajesuschrist_mathetes]

When God begins to call a person to Him, satan and his demons begin to attack that person right away. They flood you with so many lies it could make your head spin. Seeds planted in childhood will be used in combination to these lies to urge their views. The biggest lie they tell is the lie about Jesus and who He is. They will bring this up continuously because their main concern is to get you into Hell with them.(Muslim religion grew from someone giving in to the demented views offered by demons.) But if you accept Jesus for who He is He will save you from the doom meant for them. This ticks them off, you can imagine. They will never quit, not until your last breath. They have no power if you truly believe they have no power so long as you have Jesus. Jesus is so much stronger than them. You can find rest through Jesus if you truly love Him, accept His atonement for your sins and live for Him. He keeps us safe this way. I pray you find comfort in His arms.

So maybe the fit I see between part of Revelation 12 and Revelation 13 is not a current actual fulfillment of these Scriptures?Not saying it is or isn't. Some say The Tribulation doesn't start till after The Rapture. But...

Regarding Jesus and suffering "They have no power if...". These are some of the Scriptures that I believe may apply:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

...

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

...

far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

You've got part of a Psalm(Psalms 22:1) in that last part of your post. I believe that when Jesus said those words on the cross He was referring to that Psalm because that Psalm was referring to Him and what He had just done. Every word out of His mouth was in perfect timing and had perfect meaning. Are you asking if we're to suffer? Mankind has been suffering since the Fall from the Garden of Eden. Anyone who tries to follow God and His ways suffers for it. Temporarily.

If you think about it, Revelation can be applied to a Christian's whole lifespan, so can the Bible, in it's entirety. Life begins with our mother's pain(God's hard work and love) and produces something beautiful and pure, a baby(Adam and Eve and Earth) and then we grow and learn and go through trials and tribulations, we mess up, and eventually God calls us back to Him. This is also a painful process because we have to battle to get to Him. Does God not deliver(Rapture) when a women travails?

Yes re Psalm 22. Please explain your post re "They have no power if..." in light of the Scriptures I gave re Jesus. He was forsaken. Ron...

"they have no power if..." meaning the more power you believe demons or sin have the more power you give them.

And Jesus wasn't "forsaken" in the way some people think. His last words on the cross were "it is finished", the last part of the Psalm, which explained the statement "why hast thou forsaken me", the first part of that Psalm. That whole Psalm describes what had just taken place and why. He spoke those verses because His followers would later write them down and the reader or hearer would be lead by the Holy Spirit to know this.

Dear None:

We certainly have gotten off the topic of VOM-but I have enjoyed this discussion. We are one in Christ Jesus-1 Corinthians 13.

Have to agree to disagree-believe He was forsaken, and perhaps the last of His 7 words were "Into thy hands I commit my spirit". But maybe you are correct. Re "they have no power if"-consider Job, Paul and his "thorn in the flesh", other Scriptures. If, as I believe, we are in an indescribably vicious spiritual [as well as physical] War and we know how it ends, then...

God The Father is determined that we be conformed to the image of His Son. Praise The Lord! "Love one another as I have loved you". 100% unity in The Body of Christ!

Agape and peace to you and all,

Ron R

p.s. Suggest "God in the Alley"-to me, an incredible book re Jesus.

http://www.amazon.com/God-Alley-Being-Seei...n/dp/0877880921

[None]

I'm sorry if this is off topic. I'm addressing Paul's "thorn in the flesh". I always read that to mean temptation. It was never fully explained but, you would think if it were something physical he'd have been healed from it?

Jesus' last words are recorded differently in the different gospels and in different translations the words come out... differently.

(We may be "one in Christ" but we're still human individuals who, occasionally, see and hear things differently.)

John 19:30

30)When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

[ajesuschrist_mathetes]

I'm sorry if this is off topic. I'm addressing Paul's "thorn in the flesh". I always read that to mean temptation. It was never fully explained but, you would think if it were something physical he'd have been healed from it?

Jesus' last words are recorded differently in the different gospels and in different translations the words come out... differently.

(We may be "one in Christ" but we're still human individuals who, occasionally, see and hear things differently.)

John 19:30

30)When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Dear None:

The book "Cross-Shattered Christ" as well as my Criswell study Bible give this verse as Jesus' last of His 7 words:

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

fyi-

Psa 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Various views of Paul "thorn in the flesh" {remember he had problems with his eyes? might have been that}. Anyway, I just listed 2 of the number of possibilities re suffering recorded in the Word of God:Job and Paul. King Saul had an evil spirit from the LORD, Satan causing David to sin by that census caused plague upon some of Israelites, the man blind [John 9]-uncaused by sin, the man lame for many years that Jesus healed and was told to not sin so something worse might happen, "same afflictions as your brethren which are in the world", more. Verse in 1 John that was given to me a while after something impossible happened to me in my 18 month full-time Good vs Evil experience-unbearable really to think about unless one is in a Hebrew 5/Ephesians 6:10-18 state, in my opinion. How this all Ends.

To me, look at the entire Word of God, NEVER EVER be a Job's Comforter {suffering due to unconfessed sin, lack of faith,just do this and then all will be okay, on and on}.

Look into some of the books on exorcisms and exorcists' experiences. Malachi Martin {deceased}; Christian psychiatrist Scott Peck {deceased}. Allen's "Possessed" [supposed to be true], where Blatty got his book "The Exorcist", the 1973 movie.

Hebrews 12:2. John 16:12-15

Pray.

Ron R.

[None]

I'm sorry if this is off topic. I'm addressing Paul's "thorn in the flesh". I always read that to mean temptation. It was never fully explained but, you would think if it were something physical he'd have been healed from it?

Jesus' last words are recorded differently in the different gospels and in different translations the words come out... differently.

(We may be "one in Christ" but we're still human individuals who, occasionally, see and hear things differently.)

John 19:30

30)When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Dear None:

The book "Cross-Shattered Christ" as well as my Criswell study Bible give this verse as Jesus' last of His 7 words:

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

fyi-

Psa 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Various views of Paul "thorn in the flesh" {remember he had problems with his eyes? might have been that}. Anyway, I just listed 2 of the number of possibilities re suffering recorded in the Word of God:Job and Paul. King Saul had an evil spirit from the LORD, Satan causing David to sin by that census caused plague upon some of Israelites, the man blind [John 9]-uncaused by sin, the man lame for many years that Jesus healed and was told to not sin so something worse might happen, "same afflictions as your brethren which are in the world", more. Verse in 1 John that was given to me a while after something impossible happened to me in my 18 month full-time Good vs Evil experience-unbearable really to think about unless one is in a Hebrew 5/Ephesians 6:10-18 state, in my opinion. How this all Ends.

To me, look at the entire Word of God, NEVER EVER be a Job's Comforter {suffering due to unconfessed sin, lack of faith,just do this and then all will be okay, on and on}.

Look into some of the books on exorcisms and exorcists' experiences. Malachi Martin {deceased}; Christian psychiatrist Scott Peck {deceased}. Allen's "Possessed" [supposed to be true], where Blatty got his book "The Exorcist", the 1973 movie.

Hebrews 12:2. John 16:12-15

Pray.

Ron R.

Dear Ron,

I would never judge you and tell you you are being tormented because of a sin of some sort in your life.

Second, I DO read the whole Bible as a full context. Whichever account is true of Jesus' last words makes no difference to the fact that He died for us and rose again and now has power over satan and his demons and they can do nothing when we wear His name. Only try to decieve us.

Matthew 28:18

18)Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me".

I'm not trying to comfort you, only to let you know I've been through it too. When these trials come they come no matter what we're involved in(good or bad). Because it may be God is planning on using us in some way and satan knows this and is attacking in full blast.

There are too many possible reasons for spiritual warfare to speculate the cause and I'm not trying to tick God off like Job's advisers did.

The only thing I can do for you is pray and let you know I'm praying for you.

[ajesuschrist_mathetes]

I'm sorry if this is off topic. I'm addressing Paul's "thorn in the flesh". I always read that to mean temptation. It was never fully explained but, you would think if it were something physical he'd have been healed from it?

Jesus' last words are recorded differently in the different gospels and in different translations the words come out... differently.

(We may be "one in Christ" but we're still human individuals who, occasionally, see and hear things differently.)

John 19:30

30)When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Dear None:

The book "Cross-Shattered Christ" as well as my Criswell study Bible give this verse as Jesus' last of His 7 words:

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

fyi-

Psa 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Various views of Paul "thorn in the flesh" {remember he had problems with his eyes? might have been that}. Anyway, I just listed 2 of the number of possibilities re suffering recorded in the Word of God:Job and Paul. King Saul had an evil spirit from the LORD, Satan causing David to sin by that census caused plague upon some of Israelites, the man blind [John 9]-uncaused by sin, the man lame for many years that Jesus healed and was told to not sin so something worse might happen, "same afflictions as your brethren which are in the world", more. Verse in 1 John that was given to me a while after something impossible happened to me in my 18 month full-time Good vs Evil experience-unbearable really to think about unless one is in a Hebrew 5/Ephesians 6:10-18 state, in my opinion. How this all Ends.

To me, look at the entire Word of God, NEVER EVER be a Job's Comforter {suffering due to unconfessed sin, lack of faith,just do this and then all will be okay, on and on}.

Look into some of the books on exorcisms and exorcists' experiences. Malachi Martin {deceased}; Christian psychiatrist Scott Peck {deceased}. Allen's "Possessed" [supposed to be true], where Blatty got his book "The Exorcist", the 1973 movie.

Hebrews 12:2. John 16:12-15

Pray.

Ron R.

Dear Ron,

I would never judge you and tell you you are being tormented because of a sin of some sort in your life.

Second, I DO read the whole Bible as a full context. Whichever account is true of Jesus' last words makes no difference to the fact that He died for us and rose again and now has power over satan and his demons and they can do nothing when we wear His name. Only try to decieve us.

Matthew 28:18

18)Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me".

I'm not trying to comfort you, only to let you know I've been through it too. When these trials come they come no matter what we're involved in(good or bad). Because it may be God is planning on using us in some way and satan knows this and is attacking in full blast.

There are too many possible reasons for spiritual warfare to speculate the cause and I'm not trying to tick God off like Job's advisers did.

The only thing I can do for you is pray and let you know I'm praying for you.

Dear None:

Please pray for VOM and The Persecuted Church. Your "they have no power if" , which I disagree with, big part of our discussion.Thank you for your prayers-all to be prayed for as last part of the whole armour of God-Ephesians 6:10-18. Prayer, to me, is precious and priceless. And commanded and required.

Maybe background PMs to continue discussion we have had here or you maybe you start another chain {under "Spiritual Warfare"?}?.

Have studied Theodicy and have had other experiences mentioned under "Hearing From God" and elsewhere. As you know, Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was a literal messenger of Satan put in his flesh by The Lord Jesus Christ - at least that is how I understand the Scriptures. Paul asked The Lord Jesus to remove it 3 times and was denied{2 Corinthians 12:1-}.

Unity of The Spirit in the bond of peace to you and all,

Ron R.

[AnExample]

Appears that "the days of Noah"[Matthew 24:37;Genesis 6:1-] are pretty much here. Over and over The Holy Spirit focuses me on these [as well as other] Scriptures.

Satan/Lucifer/Beelzebub/devil and...:attacking and under attack["...grind him to powder"-->Matthew 21:44;Luke 20:8]. Indescribably vicious. Unbearable/indescribable Evil.

Easy to sign up at www.persecution.com and view online video testimonies of the inhuman attacks on Christians. Worldwide.

All signs are in place.

[ajesuschrist_mathetes]

Couple of items:

*From "Signs of the Times"/November 2007:tribe of former cannibals on Papua New Guinea apologized. Their ancestors ate 4 missionaries in 1878.

*From Jack Van Impe Ministries "Intelligence Briefing" for October 2007:Info from VOM:

1. Christians in northern Pakistan sent letters:convert to Islam or be killed.

2. Cambodia-new directive from goverment forbids door-to-door Evangelism.