Why I am a Christian Zionist

[Guest shiloh357]

as john the baptist said:

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

by your definition of zionists, are you not agreeing with the pharisees & sadducees?

And how does my definition of Zionism have ANYTHING to do with the above Scripture?? Zionism is simply the belief that the Jewish people have the right to live in their own homeland in peace and security, just like other people.

Do you hvae a problem with that, Fraught?

[Guest shiloh357]

You do realize that not all Jews are Zionists? There is a group of Jews who were living in peace along with the Palestinians before 1948. They refused to acknowledge the Israeli government and will not participate in elections. They call themselves "Torah True Jews."

Yes, they are called the "NETUREI KARTA," but they are only one sect (only 5,000 members in Israel), and they represent a minority view in Israel. It is interesting that you would try to use them as if their view is more valid than the millions of Jewish people who are Zionist. The influence of the Neturei Karta is negligble at best.

According to them...The Torah instructs Jews to live as best as they can in the nations to which they were dispersed. They maintain that the Torah teaches that Jews will not return to the land until the Messiah comes.

Actually, that is not what the Torah teaches, and Ezekiel and Zechariah BOTH prophecy that the Jews would return to the Land in unbelief and would find the Messiah in the Land itself. Whether your theology can make room for it or not, modern Israel is an exact, point for point, fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

Zionism is a political movement much more than a religious one.

Zionism has its orgins in the Bible and the promises of God. Zionism existed long before the modern movement. Zionism is based on the eternal covenant God made with Abraham.

[Guest shiloh357]

I beleive that the Jews will have a right to their homeland when they are brought there by God and learn who Christ truly is.

They have a right to their homeland NOW. Nowhere does the Bible hinge their right to live in Israel on belief in Christ. That is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

You need to read your Bible as the prophets declare that the Jews will be restored to the Land in unbelief.

They were dispersed for denying God/Christ. The Old Testament over and over says All Israel will not return until they have turned to God and follow his statutes.

No it does not. You need to read Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Zechariah, as they all prophesy the Jews returning to the Land in unbelief.

That has not happened yet.

It is happening, and it is happening in our day.

[nebula]

According to them...The Torah instructs Jews to live as best as they can in the nations to which they were dispersed. They maintain that the Torah teaches that Jews will not return to the land until the Messiah comes.

Zionism is a political movement much more than a religious one.

I beleive that the Jews will have a right to their homeland when they are brought there by God and learn who Christ truly is. They were dispersed for denying God/Christ. The Old Testament over and over says All Israel will not return until they have turned to God and follow his statutes. That has not happened yet.

Zech. 9

1 The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: 2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. 3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. 4 In that day," says the Lord, "I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, 'The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the Lord of hosts, their God.' 6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place--Jerusalem. 7 "The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them.

9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.* 12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.

According to this prophecy, the Jews are in Israel, particularly Jerusalem, and the Lord will save them from destruction. Then they will return to the Lors.

So, if the Jews are saved before returning to Zion, how can this prophecy be fulfilled?

[Smalcald]

Do gentile believers have a role here?

[Guest shiloh357]

Do gentile believers have a role here?

Absolutely!! It is the role of Gentile believers to provoke the Jewish people to jealousy. It is also the role of the Gentile believers to bless Israel by not only being a light for the gospel to them, but also to stand for Israel's biblical and Divine right to live in the Land. To stand with Israel against the Muslim threats concerning Israel's annihilation. Supporting Israel does not mean that you have to agree with every policy or decision made by the Israeli government, but it does mean standing with the Jewish people in Israel against those who seek to destroy them.

You have some people who think the ONLY thing Christians should do is present the gospel to the Jews and that is the extent of any support they will offer. That is both arrogant and paradoxically unChristian.

To sit in moral indifference while the terrorists indiscriminately kill innocent Jews is reminiscient of the moral indifference of the majority of Christians during and after the Holocaust. That betrays the fake "love" that some Christians profess to have for the Jewish people. When the gospel is presented in such an arrogant and insensitive manner, it is no wonder that Jewish people will have to find Christ for themselves apart from any "witness" of the Church.

[Guest shiloh357]

According to them...The Torah instructs Jews to live as best as they can in the nations to which they were dispersed. They maintain that the Torah teaches that Jews will not return to the land until the Messiah comes.

Zionism is a political movement much more than a religious one.

I beleive that the Jews will have a right to their homeland when they are brought there by God and learn who Christ truly is. They were dispersed for denying God/Christ. The Old Testament over and over says All Israel will not return until they have turned to God and follow his statutes. That has not happened yet.

Zech. 9

(snip)

According to this prophecy, the Jews are in Israel, particularly Jerusalem, and the Lord will save them from destruction. Then they will return to the Lors.

So, if the Jews are saved before returning to Zion, how can this prophecy be fulfilled?

Precisely!! Not only that passasge but Ezekiel 36:22-28 speaks of the Jewish people returning to the Land in unbelief and being spiritually restored as people by the Lord Himself. It will not be the Church that brings the Jewish people to the Lord. They will find the Lord once they are in the Land.

God makes it clear that this return in unbelief is how God will sanctify His Name among them. We are currently sitting between verses 24 and 25. The return is still in process and God will restore them Himself. This is also borne out in Chapter 37 of Ezekiel in the vision of the dry bones. That vision depicts a physical restoration followed by a spirtual restoration. This is found in Ezek. 37-7-14.

This is in keeping with history, as Israel was founded by Jews who were mostly agnostic or atheist. Many were Holocaust surviors who abandoned their faith as a result of that tragedy. Had God used Orthodox or Messianic Jews to found the state of Israel, the world would claimed it was nothing but self-fulfilled prophecy. Instead, God used unbelieving Jews who had no desire or need to fulfill prophecy. They were, unbenownst themselves, being used by God to fulill His word just as prophsied by Ezekiel.

Another important prophecy is found in Zechariah 12: 6-10. This prophecy depicts a strong Israel in the Land, defeating all of her enemies prior to the coming of the Messiah. It is not a prophecy of Israel at any time, post-Zechariah, until now. Verses 6-9 show Israel as being victorious over her enemies just like in the days when the Angel of the Lord went before them. Verse 10 then shows that it is this Israel who will find the Messiah, when He appears to them Himself and they will look upon Him. This is related to the prophecy of Zechariah 14 when Jesus returns to rescue Israel from the nations who have surrounded her to destroy her. Jesus Second Coming is to save Israel. According to the prophet Zechariah, Jesus fights for Israel. This is true, because Jesus is still a Jew, He is the King of the Jews, He is a Zionist and He is in covenant with Israel to protect her and He will fulfill that covenant when He comes again.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

Shiloh

You have some people who think the ONLY thing Christians should do is present the gospel to the Jews and that is the extent of any support they will offer. That is both arrogant and paradoxically unChristian.

I am a Christian who understands that the concept of

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

shiloh

The Church should honor God's covenant with Abraham, because it is based upon that covenant that God chose Israel, and it is because of His promise to the Patriarchs that He continues to have His hand upon the nation of Israel and the Jewish people.

The Lord

[Guest shiloh357]

The fact remains - the Lord