Say what you mean.

[Guest Greg Davies]

Many terms we use are not in the Bible, but that does not make them invalid.

Probably a poor attempt at humor.

When we start thowing around latin words and getting all philosophical, it seems to get so academic and stuffy and I wonder sometimes of we aren't getting away from the simplicity of Christ.

Greg.

[EricH]

Many terms we use are not in the Bible, but that does not make them invalid.

Probably a poor attempt at humor.

When we start thowing around latin words and getting all philosophical, it seems to get so academic and stuffy and I wonder sometimes of we aren't getting away from the simplicity of Christ.

Greg.

You are probably right at times

[Phil.2:12]

When we began the mental exercise of semantically creating a concept opposite from an existing concept, i.e. ex dei vs. ex nihilo, we run the distinct risk of putting words into God's mouth. This is a task no man has the ability to do. Scriptures simply state that God spoke and things were created. Where the material came from is God's business, not ours. Everything God created, save one, was spoken into existence by God. That is the Scriptural record and the only record we should be concerned with, for to consider any other record ultimately leads to false doctrine being introduced into the fabric that is formed by the Scriptural account of creation. And that leads to sure trouble down the road.

The one exception to God speaking creation into existence, man, was created out of a known substance, the dirt of the earth that God had spoken into existence. If it was important for us humans, in the grand scheme of the universe, to know what material (if any) God used when He spoke creation into being, God would have left clues within His Word for us to find and then assemble much as one does when they successfully finish a puzzle. Since we humans have to sit around and fabricate theories to explain the material God used (or didn't use) to create the universe, it is evident that such clues to the material used in creation (except for man's creation) is not found in Scripture. Therefore, from God's viewpoint such attempts to explain the mater used in creation is a waste of time. It would be far more profitable for humans to explore the bond between God and man brought about by the sacrifice of Jesus and His shed blood. In other words, to mature in the Lord instead of trying to find something that simply doesn't matter in the total scheme of the universe.

[Leonard]

My Latin's a little too rusty probably to formulate anything better than ex nihilo, which, with it's great lode of meaning from history, the Church has used for nearly 2,000 years. Anything you put after the Latin ex, must of necessity refer to the SUBSTANCE used. I think our friend Laffin is simply trying to describe God's MOTIVE for creation, as coming from His essential nature, whereas the actual SUBSTANCE--the ousis in the Greek--of creation was simply brought into existence, qua substance, by God, sans predecedent substance. All this adds up to the Latin ex nihilo being the correct phrase to use.

Lets see how badly I can slaughter the "King's Latin" today: In Gratia Deo, Dei Creatio. Pretty sure I'm getting my modern Italian mixed up with my Latin there, folks, but I mean to quote a Latin phrase from Aquinas: "For no reason other than Himself, God created."

[Fraught]

When we began the mental exercise of semantically creating a concept opposite from an existing concept, i.e. ex dei vs. ex nihilo, we run the distinct risk of putting words into God's mouth. This is a task no man has the ability to do. Scriptures simply state that God spoke and things were created. Where the material came from is God's business, not ours. Everything God created, save one, was spoken into existence by God. That is the Scriptural record and the only record we should be concerned with, for to consider any other record ultimately leads to false doctrine being introduced into the fabric that is formed by the Scriptural account of creation. And that leads to sure trouble down the road.

The one exception to God speaking creation into existence, man, was created out of a known substance, the dirt of the earth that God had spoken into existence. If it was important for us humans, in the grand scheme of the universe, to know what material (if any) God used when He spoke creation into being, God would have left clues within His Word for us to find and then assemble much as one does when they successfully finish a puzzle. Since we humans have to sit around and fabricate theories to explain the material God used (or didn't use) to create the universe, it is evident that such clues to the material used in creation (except for man's creation) is not found in Scripture. Therefore, from God's viewpoint such attempts to explain the mater used in creation is a waste of time. It would be far more profitable for humans to explore the bond between God and man brought about by the sacrifice of Jesus and His shed blood. In other words, to mature in the Lord instead of trying to find something that simply doesn't matter in the total scheme of the universe.

i hear you but it's just God's children talking. i remember when i was in love, my lover was all i ever wanted to talk about. i think this is pretty much the same. we never get tired of talking about our Father. we get talked out for awhile over the things we know and so move on to things we can only wonder about and soon we'll be back into the things we know and they will still feel fresh. it's kind of amazing when you think about it.

[Guest Rapturebound]

I think we as Christians have to watch ourselves continually when it comes to these discussions. I know for my self sometimes the flesh wants to exhault itself a little as far as what it knows. Man, the key to all of this is faith. Faith is a continous everyday event. We have to challenge ourselves daily to stay on track. I know for myself I have to ask if this forum is taking the place of my fellowship with the Lord. We should desire the things that are of the unseen nature or guidance from the Holy Spirit for direction in life. I know I fell into the trap of looking to those around me for support or aid in bad times rather than looking to God for the answer. The question is do we want the real thing or a substitution. We can go for a blessing or seek THE BLESSING. I desire the best of what God has not just a sample. Lord help me!!!

Be Blessed

[S.A.Laffin]

First I want to say thank you all for the discussion thus far, it has been really helpful to me.

I feel the comment about "getting all philosophical, it seems to get so academic and stuffy" is justified. I, being a student of academia, can get caught up in the clouds with the scholars and speak in their language not common language. This brings me to the title of this post "Say what you mean." I feel I have not done this, well at least not in a way which is accessible to all. Maybe I should stay away from Latin, or Greek, or Hebrew and speak in clear English, so that I am not misunderstood. Thank you for showing this to me.

The reason I wanted to present a new way of speaking about how we view creation is because the terms do not seem to fit what actually happened. In an attempt to clarify the terms I may have simply created more confusion. However, when we look at the biblical account of creation, God did not create from nothing. He created from himself. He spoke creation into being and formed creation into being. When God spoke into creation that was an act of creation flowing out from him, not from nothing. This is not to say that when God created he took his substance and created from it, making everything "deified" substance, as this would be pantheism. This does say that the source from which creation came about was God and not nothing. Hopefully this clears some things up, if not continue posting.

[Phil.2:12]

When we began the mental exercise of semantically creating a concept opposite from an existing concept, i.e. ex dei vs. ex nihilo, we run the distinct risk of putting words into God's mouth. This is a task no man has the ability to do. Scriptures simply state that God spoke and things were created. Where the material came from is God's business, not ours. Everything God created, save one, was spoken into existence by God. That is the Scriptural record and the only record we should be concerned with, for to consider any other record ultimately leads to false doctrine being introduced into the fabric that is formed by the Scriptural account of creation. And that leads to sure trouble down the road.

The one exception to God speaking creation into existence, man, was created out of a known substance, the dirt of the earth that God had spoken into existence. If it was important for us humans, in the grand scheme of the universe, to know what material (if any) God used when He spoke creation into being, God would have left clues within His Word for us to find and then assemble much as one does when they successfully finish a puzzle. Since we humans have to sit around and fabricate theories to explain the material God used (or didn't use) to create the universe, it is evident that such clues to the material used in creation (except for man's creation) is not found in Scripture. Therefore, from God's viewpoint such attempts to explain the mater used in creation is a waste of time. It would be far more profitable for humans to explore the bond between God and man brought about by the sacrifice of Jesus and His shed blood. In other words, to mature in the Lord instead of trying to find something that simply doesn't matter in the total scheme of the universe.

i hear you but it's just God's children talking. i remember when i was in love, my lover was all i ever wanted to talk about. i think this is pretty much the same. we never get tired of talking about our Father. we get talked out for awhile over the things we know and so move on to things we can only wonder about and soon we'll be back into the things we know and they will still feel fresh. it's kind of amazing when you think about it.

I have put part of your quote in bold letters, because this is precisely the point I was making, it's just us kids talking. However, we kids seem to get farther and farther from the Scriptural point of view in our "talking". This leads to false doctrines and heresies being developed within the very family of God. As soon as Jesus delivered His Gospel, Satan came around and tried to twist it to mean something entirely different. All the serious false doctrines and heresies (those who really impacted the Body of Christ such as the Gnostic heresy) have come out of us kids talking amoung ourselves. This is the very seedbed from which the most destructive false doctrines and heresies have sprung.

If we don't keep the Scriptural viewpoint in mind when we kids "talk amoung ourselves", all kinds of trouble springs up. We need to keep focused on what's important when we "talk amoung ourselves". If we truly do love our Heavenly Father, we will support only those views that Scripture supports, especially when we kids talk amoung ourselves. For Scripture is nothing more than what our Heavenly Father has said and to veer away from what He said does not show our love for Him. We can talk about God until the cows come home, but to ignore what His Word says on any given topic and go off on a tangent does not really show our love for Him, rather it shows our ignorance of His Word on the topic at hand.

For those wondering what the Gnostic heresy was, it is still with us. It can best be described by the old schoolyard taunt "I know something you don't know", implying that you are more special than the other person because you know the "secret things" that they don't know. And this heresy heavily depends upon "secret writings" that are beyond the Scriptural viewpoint, last seen in the "Da Vinci Code".

[S.A.Laffin]

When we began the mental exercise of semantically creating a concept opposite from an existing concept, i.e. ex dei vs. ex nihilo, we run the distinct risk of putting words into God's mouth. This is a task no man has the ability to do. Scriptures simply state that God spoke and things were created. Where the material came from is God's business, not ours. Everything God created, save one, was spoken into existence by God. That is the Scriptural record and the only record we should be concerned with, for to consider any other record ultimately leads to false doctrine being introduced into the fabric that is formed by the Scriptural account of creation. And that leads to sure trouble down the road.

The one exception to God speaking creation into existence, man, was created out of a known substance, the dirt of the earth that God had spoken into existence. If it was important for us humans, in the grand scheme of the universe, to know what material (if any) God used when He spoke creation into being, God would have left clues within His Word for us to find and then assemble much as one does when they successfully finish a puzzle. Since we humans have to sit around and fabricate theories to explain the material God used (or didn't use) to create the universe, it is evident that such clues to the material used in creation (except for man's creation) is not found in Scripture. Therefore, from God's viewpoint such attempts to explain the mater used in creation is a waste of time. It would be far more profitable for humans to explore the bond between God and man brought about by the sacrifice of Jesus and His shed blood. In other words, to mature in the Lord instead of trying to find something that simply doesn't matter in the total scheme of the universe.

i hear you but it's just God's children talking. i remember when i was in love, my lover was all i ever wanted to talk about. i think this is pretty much the same. we never get tired of talking about our Father. we get talked out for awhile over the things we know and so move on to things we can only wonder about and soon we'll be back into the things we know and they will still feel fresh. it's kind of amazing when you think about it.

I have put part of your quote in bold letters, because this is precisely the point I was making, it's just us kids talking. However, we kids seem to get farther and farther from the Scriptural point of view in our "talking". This leads to false doctrines and heresies being developed within the very family of God. As soon as Jesus delivered His Gospel, Satan came around and tried to twist it to mean something entirely different. All the serious false doctrines and heresies (those who really impacted the Body of Christ such as the Gnostic heresy) have come out of us kids talking amoung ourselves. This is the very seedbed from which the most destructive false doctrines and heresies have sprung.

If we don't keep the Scriptural viewpoint in mind when we kids "talk amoung ourselves", all kinds of trouble springs up. We need to keep focused on what's important when we "talk amoung ourselves". If we truly do love our Heavenly Father, we will support only those views that Scripture supports, especially when we kids talk amoung ourselves. For Scripture is nothing more than what our Heavenly Father has said and to veer away from what He said does not show our love for Him. We can talk about God until the cows come home, but to ignore what His Word says on any given topic and go off on a tangent does not really show our love for Him, rather it shows our ignorance of His Word on the topic at hand.

For those wondering what the Gnostic heresy was, it is still with us. It can best be described by the old schoolyard taunt "I know something you don't know", implying that you are more special than the other person because you know the "secret things" that they don't know. And this heresy heavily depends upon "secret writings" that are beyond the Scriptural viewpoint, last seen in the "Da Vinci Code".

I agree that we need to "keep the Scriptural viewpoint in mind" however Scripture is not always as clear as we would like to be. If it were there would not be multiple forms of the Orthodox church, Catholic church, or the thousands of denominations in the Protestant church. When discussing doctrine we are attempting to do the best job explaining what God has revealed to us. There will be instances where this cannot be done. However where we can discuss an understanding of God's word, we should. Quoting scripture is not always the best way to do this, because we have different ways of interpreting scripture. This does not mean that all the ways are correct, but it does mean that in our discussions about scripture we will have to use more than just scripture. We will have to use language which explains scripture without abusing scripture.