Do Babies Automatically Go to Heaven?

[Guest mcm42]

If a babie dies, it does go to heaven. "Original sin" means that we have a natural inclination to commmit sin because of our fallen flesh, not that we are guilty of sin. An infant, or even an aborted fetus, who hasn't yet heard a single moral command and who has not consciously done what he knows to be wrong is not guilty of sin.

"Therefore as one tresspass led to condemnation for all men so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. FOr as by the one mans disobedience the many were made sinners so by the onemans' obedience the many will be made righteous."

Romans 5:18-19

I'm sure there is some greek word I'm missing here, that's what everyone seems to do when you post a plain cut and dry verse... but this is one of many verses proving Total Depravity...

THIS DOES NOT MEAN BABIES GO TO HELL... IT SIMPLY MEANS THEY TOO NEED A SAVIOR, GRACE, WHICH IS GRANTED TO THEM THROUGH ELECTION...THE SAME WAY WE ARE ALL SAVED...NOT BY CONFESSION, OR ACCEPTANCE BUT BY FAITH, WHICH IS A GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF OURSELVES!!

[OneAccord]

Does this mean that babies are automatically saved when they are born, and then they somehow lose their salvation when they reach some accountable age or when they commit their first sin?

Or are they saved just before they die or just after they die?

I'm having a hard time understanding what the salvation process is for babies as an exception to the rule for mankind.

Please remember that I do believe that all babies go to heaven, just having trouble making sense of the process.

[Dad Ernie]

Does this mean that babies are automatically saved when they are born, and then they somehow lose their salvation when they reach some accountable age or when they commit their first sin?

Or are they saved just before they die or just after they die?

I'm having a hard time understanding what the salvation process is for babies as an exception to the rule for mankind.

Please remember that I do believe that all babies go to heaven, just having trouble making sense of the process.

Greetings OA,

The important thing is to be found in the Lamb's Book of Life at the Judgment Seat. Can you find anything in scripture that says someone is ADDED to the Book, like added by means of salvation through Jesus Christ? Or are there only verses which tell of someone being ERASED from the Lamb's Book of Life?

What would ERASE us from the Lamb's Book of Life? Blasphemy? Adding to or Taking away from the Word of God? Rejection of God's Only Son? Taking the Mark of the Beast?

You tell me what you find.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest Berkana]

"Therefore as one tresspass led to condemnation for all men so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.  FOr as by the one mans disobedience the many were made sinners so by the onemans' obedience the many will be made righteous."

Romans 5:18-19

I'm not saying that the souls of aborted fetuses and dead babies don't need to have faith in Jesus nor the grace of God, because without faith, it is impossible to please God. However, the scriptures give no clue as to how a child that dies before having lived a normal life goes about placing their faith in Jesus. What I'm saying is that the soul of an aborted fetus is not automatically condemned, which is the topic of this discussion.

Look at the verse from Romans that you quoted in the context of all scripture; fixating on a vew verses in isolation leads to bad conclusions. Yes, we're all sinners, but in the same epistle, in Romans 7:9, Paul clearly says that there was a point in time where he was "alive apart from the law".

Romans 7:7-11

What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

    For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

He was still a "sinner" in that he was inclined to break the law when he heard it because of sin in him, because he inherited the condemned, fallen flesh just like everyone else. But "were made sinners" is not the same thin as "were made guilty". The verse above says that when he heard the law, he sinned, and that put him to death spiritually. Paul did not start out spiritually dead as a baby; he started out spiritually dying, because he clearly states that it is his sin that put him to death; we are "dead in our sins"--because we have commited sins, but a dead infant or an aborted fetus has not committed sin, because "apart from the law, sin is dead", and Romans 7:9 is clear that there is a point where a person is alive apart from the law, before sin. A infant who dies in this state is not condemned for sin because no sin has yet been committed. And we know that the Law does not apply to the dead, but the living, and that a dead infant or an aborted fetus is 1) dead and not subject to the law 2) is "alive apart from the law" as Paul was as an infant because it never heard and understood any moral laws and consciously violated any of them.

I'm sure there is some greek word I'm missing here, that's what everyone seems to do when you post a plain cut and dry verse... but this is one of many verses proving Total Depravity...

THIS DOES NOT MEAN BABIES GO TO HELL... IT SIMPLY MEANS THEY TOO NEED A SAVIOR, GRACE, WHICH IS GRANTED TO THEM THROUGH ELECTION...THE SAME WAY WE ARE ALL SAVED...NOT BY CONFESSION, OR ACCEPTANCE BUT BY FAITH, WHICH IS A GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF OURSELVES!!

(If you would refrain from sarcasm and yellling (typing in all capitals) I would really appreciate it. I'm trying to have a civil discussion about a doctrine of scripture, not a personal feud.)

[Guest Berkana]

Does this mean that babies are automatically saved when they are born, and then they somehow lose their salvation when they reach some accountable age or when they commit their first sin?

Or are they saved just before they die or just after they die?

I'm having a hard time understanding what the salvation process is for babies as an exception to the rule for mankind.

Please remember that I do believe that all babies go to heaven, just having trouble making sense of the process.

Consider what we are saved from: we are saved from the penalty of our sins, and ultimately from the power and presence of sin in our lives. An infant doesn't lose his salvation (the noun form of "to save") because an infant has not sinned. According to Romans 7:9, there is a point in a person's life before one is conscious of moral laws, where one is spiritually alive. Because of these reasons, it shouldn't be said that a baby loses his salvation because a person cannot lose his salvation; it would be better said that a child needs salvation (needs to be saved from God's wrath for his sins) after his first sin.

Matthew 18:2-3

He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:13-14

Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.

    Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

[Guest mcm42]

If you would refrain from sarcasm and yellling (typing in all capitals) I would really appreciate it. I'm trying to have a civil discussion about a doctrine of scripture, not a personal feud.)

Caps do not presume a yelling attitude, rather emphasis, at least when I AM TYPING. Just an example there. Now, as far as sarcasm, it's not to start a fude, I have no personal issue with anyone here, If they are saved they are my brothers and sisters in Christ, if currently unsaved, they are seeking... I don't at all mean to fude, only to emphasize points.

The reason I capitalized what I did was because the beginning taught Total Depravity. I Capialized to emphasized that Total Depravity does not assume Hell bound babies. That was the only reason.

[Guest mcm42]

How the Faith of a baby works...

O.K. I see there is some confusion on how a baby somehow loses their salvation as they grow only to need to be saved again.

The baby Like you and I are "predestined before the earth began". We are all guilty, totally depraved. Out of the entire human race all are going to hell, every one. Even the ones who don't ever "sin" again Romans 5 because through one man condemnation came to all men.

So we are all hell bound sinners, from birth. All deserving hell. Out of all these who deserve nothing but hell, God chooses (his elect) those whom he will be merciful to. "I will have mercy on those whom I have mercy, and have compassion on those I have compassion" Rom.9

We see this exact example in Romans 9 when, before they were born, and before they had done good or bad, God said "Jacob I have loved but esau I have hated". It's not as though God was unfair, or is unfair in choosing. He does not owe his creation anything.

He is fair and just to send us all to hell. rather he chose to bring Glory to himself by electing some for faith. FAITH IS THE GIFT, you can not have faith unless God gives it to you. If left to yourself you would never choose Christ, for your actions are totally sinful.

Now, how does the baby differ from the full grown Christian? He does not. He is elected as well, the only real difference is that his gift of faith is never given the chance to display itself in such works as acceptance or repentance. Or better yet preaching, evangelizing etc.

GOD IS SOVEREIGN, IT IS HE WHO SAVES BABY, TEEN, TWEEN, MIDDLERS, AND THE ELDERLY, All according to his own divine purpose.

God elects, and whom he elects he will bring into his presence. (That would explain why no one is ever added to the book of life)

Point? If God chose you, you will be savd and guess what you will perform the works he prepared beforehand for you (Eph 2:10). Babies obviously did not have any such works prepared beforehand.

The point is Babies are elect, just like us. THis election saves them, not works.

Lastly I would like to point out that when you accepted Christ, you did not do this of your own will power, God allowed you to be saved. Rather, He elected you, drew you and prepared your works beforehand. He didn't just allow it rather he orchestrated it.

God is not surprised, He is sovereign Totally in control of all actions choices, etc. Anything less is not God.

[Work in Progress]

Caps do not presume a yelling attitude

Just so you know, typing in all caps does indeed say that you are YELLING. Whether or not you mean it that way - I don't know how "net savvy" you are (if this is your only board, or if you are a pro surfer, lol), but there is something called "netiquette" and you can find out about it on the net - and typing in caps is indeed considered in all circles as "yelling".

Not being smart, just letting you know.

[Guest mcm42]

ok...

no more caps for me so that people don't think i'm yelling.

i apologize for unintentionally yelling in my previous posts.

sorry...

there is a bit of sarcasm in this but really i am sorry, don't mean to yell.

is bold ok

ps my sarcasm is only to lighten the issues, i never mean to get personal. i'll try to refrain from that as well.

[Work in Progress]

no more caps for me so that people don't think i'm yelling.

i apologize for unintentionally yelling in my previous posts.

Oh, by all means, YELL if you want to. I wasn't trying to tell you not to yell, just that you are yelling. Now you don't have to yell if you don't want to, and can yell all you want if you want to. LOL

And - see? bold is fine. It's ALL good. LOL