Do Babies Automatically Go to Heaven?

[Guest mcm42]

Ezekiel 18? Or Deut. 24

Deut 24 speaks of Physical death by not following the Law. It teaches that if A mans son does wrong, he should not pay for it (according to the Law) and if a son's father does wrong the righteous child should not be stoned. These verses do not speak of salvation, but of Judgement.

Now for Ezekiel... Notice that when he speaks of the righteous man it is hypathetical, if a man does all these things he will not be judged.

But watch the end

"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.

31  "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

The Hypathetical is, if you keep the law totally, God will not judge, but we can not keep the Law! As Paul states The Law Made sin known. each individual will be judged accordingly, we all, like they did need to repent and turn because we are sinful at heart.

I may add to this once I get Home...

thanks for the questions...

[stevehut]

Deut 24 speaks of Physical death by not following the Law.  It teaches that if  A mans son does wrong, he should not pay for it (according to the Law) and if a son's father does wrong the righteous child should not be stoned.  These verses do not speak of salvation, but of Judgement.

Now for Ezekiel... Notice that when he speaks of the righteous man it is hypathetical, if a man does all these things he will not be judged.

My point exactly. Every man is responsible for his own righteousnes and repentance, regardless of his father's sins.

And if God should strike me (physically) dead for my sin, doesn't that have implications for my eventual salvation? Or we making allowances here for purgatory.....??

Thanks for making my case for me. :-)

[Guest mcm42]

Every man is responsible for his own righteousnes and repentance, regardless of his father's sins.

This does not disprove total depravity for you. It shows that we are all in need of repentance...we have recieved from adam a sin nature, So we are therefore sinful. Otherwise a baby couldn't die until he sinned, because he would still be innocent, and like adam was before adam sinned!!

NO one is righteous, we all pay for our sin nature, which we unfortunatly did inherit from Adam. This verse is not about the sin nature, it's about who pays for what. It's about how we will be judged, not who will go to heaven. We don't pay for what Adam did or didn't do, but we do inherit the Sin.

I don't know what you meant by your purgatory comment. I do believe that there will be varying degrees of punishment in hell, but all will be there, and it will not be pleasant!

Since no man is righteous at all, (which is what Ezekial implies by saying they all needed to repent) we are all sinful to begin with.

Again I ask we if we don't in some way pay for the sin of adam, why do babies die prior to ever sinning? If death came through sin, and babies are totally innocent why do they even die?

I know I know, here it comes...Why did Christ Die... He was innocent! True, but he allowed himself to die, he could have lived forever, he came as flesh that he allowed to die. Christ is the only example of perfect dieing, and why did he die? because He had to take on the weight of sin, and pay the penalty, so in a sense, although he did no sin, he died willingly, not because of his sin, but because of ours!!

Babies die for the same reason we die, our natures are sin cursed, along with our souls. And they go to heaven the same way we go, not of themselves, but as a gift from God.

[stevehut]

Again I ask we if we don't in some way pay for the sin of adam, why do babies die prior to ever sinning? If death came through sin, and babies are totally innocent why do they even die?

Maybe because they're sick.

John 9:

1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

Illness is not always a punishment for sin.

[Guest mcm42]

John 9:

1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

Illness is not always a punishment for sin.

There was no death prior to adams sin. If a baby is totally innocent, it could not die. Illness, was also not prevalent in Adams time. We're talking about a fallen world here! Illness runs rampant, because of Adam's sin.

We know tha God works all things unto good! So he uses this fallen world to bring about his Glory (that's what's happening in your quote).

The fact is though, that the Baby couldn't die if it was in a pre-sinful state. Adam couldn't die, and neither could [edit] could the baby [edit]

And death is always a punishment for sin... no one dies, either physically or eternally, except because of sin.

So man is frail and dies because of the sin of adam... which I will make again reference to Romans 5 that death spread to all men, because of one man.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings MCM,

There was no death prior to adams sin. If a baby is totally innocent, it could not die. Illness, was also not prevalent in Adams time. We're talking about a fallen world here! Illness runs rampant, because of Adam's sin.

We know tha God works all things unto good! So he uses this fallen world to bring about his Glory (that's what's happening in your quote).

The fact is though, that the Baby couldn't die if it was in a pre-sinful state. Adam couldn't die, and neither could [edit] could the baby [edit]

And death is always a punishment for sin... no one dies, either physically or eternally, except because of sin.

So man is frail and dies because of the sin of adam... which I will make again reference to Romans 5 that death spread to all men, because of one man.

I think you have a misconception here. There were TWO trees in the Garden of Eden. The Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. You have to remember this verse:

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

This verse is saying that as long as Adam & Eve had access to the Tree of Life, and they ate of it, they would "live forever". To PREVENT access to the tree, after they had sinned, they HAD to be banned from the Garden of Eden. Where does it say that Adam would never die while in the Garden if he had not eaten of the Tree of Knowledge? Is it not written that "It is appointed unto man once to die then the judgment"? The curse of physical death was dependent upon "eating or rather NOT eating of the Tree of Life".

If you are familiar with "typology", you can see that the "Tree of Life" is the type, and the antitype is Christ, and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, is what has always been present in this world and we are commanded to "not to love this world, nor the things in it." Now, with Christ, if we do not "eat of Him", then we have no "eternal" life. Remember when He said "take and eat for this bread is my body, and this drink is my blood. He who eats and and drinks of me shall never die." Of course Christ was talking about "eternal separation from God" - a severe "spiritual death". This is the death that would remove one from the Lamb's Book of Life which was conceived BEFORE the foundation of the world and FROM the foundation of the world was every one's name written in it.

Now sin is serious business. What it does is once sin is conceived in a person's heart it begins to drive a wedge between that person and God. If it continues, God may let it go for some time, but we are never sure of when God will call us on it. See Annanias and Sapphira. But we now have an advocate with the Father, and that is His Son. When our conscience is pricked by the Holy Spirit and we repent, then our sins are forgiven and we are restored to Him. David was a man after God's own heart. When he was confronted with his dasterdly deeds by the prophet, he realized his depth of sin and repented.

Now I have drifted just a little bit, but my point is that IF Adam and Eve and any of their progeny had NOT eaten of either tree in the Garden, they still would have eventually died a physical death. The reason I know this is because of:

Romans 8:20-23 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

It was the plan of God right along that, even though He knew Adam and his progeny would sin, He had even greater plans for them and that was to become "the children of God".

It is no wonder the angels desire to look into these things, because God's plan is awesome to behold.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest mcm42]

think you have a misconception here. There were TWO trees in the Garden of Eden. The Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. You have to remember this verse:

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

This verse is saying that as long as Adam & Eve had access to the Tree of Life, and they ate of it, they would "live forever". To PREVENT access to the tree, after they had sinned, they HAD to be banned from the Garden of Eden. Where does it say that Adam would never die while in the Garden if he had not eaten of the Tree of Knowledge?

Well...

Genesis 2:16,17 "And the Lord God commanded the man saying, you may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die"

If he was going to die anyway, what would be the point of saying that? Also, notice eating from the tree of life did not become a problem until AFTER they had sinned. WHY? God could not have them eating From the tree of life and living forever in their sin!

Oh by the way... there were numerous amounts of trees in the garden, not just Two. Since we all die through adam... it is now appointed for a man to die once then Judgement.

Romans 8 (which you quoted) is speaking of a post-sinful world, not a pre sinful.

I don't think I need to remind you that after the sin the ground was cursed. In Romans 8 you see the groaning from the curse and in Rev. 22:3 we see that we will have access to the tree of life and the curse will be taken away!

Notice also Gen. 3:19 is when it is declared that man will return to dust, not until this point was it decreed.

Lastly Gen. 3:20 the first animals are killed for skins. Death is a result of the sin, genesis reveals it and Romans 5 boldly declares it. We are indeed condemned because of the sin of one man!

[stevehut]

There was no death prior to adams sin. If a baby is totally innocent, it could not die. Illness, was also not prevalent in Adams time. We're talking about a fallen world here! Illness runs rampant, because of Adam's sin.

Then what do you make of that passage from John 9? The man was born blind, and Jesus says that sin was not the issue.

[Guest mcm42]

Then what do you make of that passage from John 9? The man was born blind, and Jesus says that sin was not the issue.

I ask you this... was the man in John 9 Sinless? CERTAINLY NOT!

Jesus did not say that "Sin was not the issue" He said that this person was not blind as a direct result of someone's sin.

No one would be blind if it were not for the curse... there would be no blind babies. How "GOOD" would the creation have been if this were the case before the FALL. You decieve yourself and tickle your ears with what you want to hear...

How can we release the perfect creation over this issue? Any disease, and all death and all pain, and all suffering is due to to adams sin... I doubt you will argue this point and if you should, then review Genesis 1 and 2... Notice God said it was GOOD. It was perfect prior to adams sin. I cannot believe this is being challenge for the sake of this issue. There must be no doubt... that sin is the ultimate reason for any disease, and any death, and any pain.. for these things were not a part of the original creation.

That is how I handle it because that is how it is to be handled!

[stevehut]

I ask you this... was the man in John 9 Sinless? CERTAINLY NOT!

Um, I didn't say the man was sinless. What I said, is that sin was not the cause of his blindness. (At least, that was what Jesus said.)

John 9:3

"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.