The Great Whore of the Revelation (chp 18)

[Guest shiloh357]

My approach is also superior, because I do not rely on cut and pastes.

You have cut and pastes on this thread...I do not. I have used only scripture throughout.

You have misapplied and misconstrued the true meanings of the Scriptures you posted. It is enough to post Scripture. You must also post the correct Scriptures that address the issue at hand and the cherry pick approach you apply. Posting Scripture is useless if you don't handle the word with skill.

[nebula]

It is too relavent - when the "Scriptural evidence" is filled with flawed applicatioins.

So now the scripture evidence is flawed. Get real

I challenged these claims on separate fronts, and yet you have not defended the claims with evidence.

Your challenges are not even applicable to the scripture presented that point to a case for Jerusalem being the whore of Revelation 18. I have discovered that quite often you talk in circles and drift off on something else that does nothing but detract from the topic. By the way, please note that I am not saying Jerusalem is the whore of Revelation 18, but I believe from the scriptural evidence presented, there is a strong case for it. I can present much more scriptural evidence when and if I have the time to waste

You see - all you can do is taunt. That is not the way to debate an issue.

[Guest shiloh357]

Jerusalem has never ruled the kings of the earth. Jerusalem at the time of Revelation was written was ruled by Rome. There is no way any thinking person can make a case for Jerusalem being the whore. History alone defies any attempt to make Jerusalem the whore.

When Jerusalem was destroyed, the "merchants of the earth" did not mourn. Judea in the first century, was an irrelevant backwater province in the Roman empire. Jerusalem was not a major player in world events. Jerusalem was not a center for commerce.

The "Jerusalem whore" crowd cannot produce even one set of parallel passages. They cannot produce ONE scrap of text that plainly states that Jerusalem is the whore, which is the most basic and necessary piece of evidence. They cannot produce ONE passage from OT end time prophecies that describe Jerusalem in the same manner as the whore is described in Revelation 17. That is because Jerusalem is not whore of Rev. 17

One of the major disconnects with all of this is Zechariah 14. Jerusalem according to Zechariah will be under siege from the nations of the world who seek her destruction and to gain a spoil. So the glaring question is why would those who seek to bring about the fall of Jerusaelm and to get rich off of Jerusalem's destruction MOURN her destruction?

Zechariah shows Jesus returning to rescue Jerusalem from the nations. Revelation 17 portrays a whore off of whose riches, "the merchants of the earth" were made rich and affluent and at whose destruction the merchants now mourn.

They are two completely opposite prophetic pictures and they cannot BOTH be talking about the same thing. They are too diametrically opposed.

Not only that but according to Revelation 18: 21, when Babylon is destroyed, it will be found no more. It will cease to exist. However God has promised that the nation of Israel will never cease to exist and that Jerusalem, during the Millennium will be the seat of Jesus' reign. Why would Jesus destroy the city from which He plans to reign?

These are the kinds of logical and Scriptural inconsistencies that are present in the entire "Jerusalem whore" theolocial trainwreck.

[Guest shiloh357]

Not so with me at all. I gather all scripture pertaining to a given topic through a word or scripture search, and put it all together,

I understand that. In fact, I suspected as much. But the passages have to be parallel and they have to actually cover the same subject matter. Once again, case in point, is your use of Ezekiel 16. Ezekiel 16 is not an end time prophecy. It does not speak to what Jerusalem will or will not be in the future. Ezekiel 16 is a rebuke for the sin of Jerusalem prior to the Babylonian exile. Just because God accuses Jerusalem of playing the harlot in Ezekiel 16 does not mean that "the whore" mentioned in Revelation 17 is Jerusalem.

There is no textual or logical way to make that kind of leap from Ezekiel to Revelation. At least, you have not DEMONSTRATED how such a leap is justified. Other cities in the Bible are also called whores/harlots. Why must Jerusalem be singled out?

That is just one example. Just doing a word search will not produce a proper undersanding of a passage all on its own. Passages must be alike in both context and subject matter in order to be used comparitively. Just because two verses contain an identical word or two does not mean they are using the word the same way in each verse.

One of the most basic rules interpreation is that you interpret text internally by first seeking to understand the object the author had in view. Without that basic principle, you make the Bible say anything you want, and suddenly the Bible is no longer the Word of God, but has become a servant to the whims and fancies of the reader.

That is why it does not matter how much Scripture you use on a given subject. If the verses are being misapplied, they do not constitute "evidence" of anything.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

I understand that

No you don't. Your cheap pot shots demonstrate the depravity of the human soul and just how low a human soul will go. You even had to pick apart this post of mine in a desparate attempt to continue to distort what I have said.

In other words you are completely helpless to defend your assertions. You cannot demonstrate that your approach is biblically sound. You cannot show that Ezekiel 16 speaks to the issue at hand. So, you have to hide behind emotional rants and play the persecution card in order to deflect attention away from your inability to actually support your assertions. That is ALL you have done this entire thread.

There was nothing "desparate" in what I said. I simply pointed out that word search by itself does not produce accurate results. It is only one tool in the tool box. It has value, but it does not make up for poor application and a disregard for context and subject matter. There are several considerations that must be taken into account when handling a given text.

When faced with the with obivious and irrefutable weakness of your attempt to connect Ezek. 16 to Revelation you accuse me of distorting what you have said. I have not distorted anything you have said. I have challenged what you said, and you are unable to answer any objection with solid biblical evidence that your position has any merit whatsoever.

I have presented solid reasons why Jerusalem cannot be the whore. I will repost them here:

Jerusalem has never ruled the kings of the earth. Jerusalem at the time of Revelation was written was ruled by Rome. There is no way any thinking person can make a case for Jerusalem being the whore. History alone defies any attempt to make Jerusalem the whore.

When Jerusalem was destroyed, the "merchants of the earth" did not mourn. Judea in the first century, was an irrelevant backwater province in the Roman empire. Jerusalem was not a major player in world events. Jerusalem was not a center for commerce.

The "Jerusalem whore" crowd cannot produce even one set of parallel passages. They cannot produce ONE scrap of text that plainly states that Jerusalem is the whore, which is the most basic and necessary piece of evidence. They cannot produce ONE passage from OT end time prophecies that describe Jerusalem in the same manner as the whore is described in Revelation 17. That is because Jerusalem is not whore of Rev. 17

One of the major disconnects with all of this is Zechariah 14. Jerusalem according to Zechariah will be under siege from the nations of the world who seek her destruction and to gain a spoil. So the glaring question is why would those who seek to bring about the fall of Jerusaelm and to get rich off of Jerusalem's destruction MOURN her destruction?

Zechariah shows Jesus returning to rescue Jerusalem from the nations. Revelation 17 portrays a whore off of whose riches, "the merchants of the earth" were made rich and affluent and at whose destruction the merchants now mourn.

They are two completely opposite prophetic pictures and they cannot BOTH be talking about the same thing. They are too diametrically opposed.

Not only that but according to Revelation 18: 21, when Babylon is destroyed, it will be found no more. It will cease to exist. However God has promised that the nation of Israel will never cease to exist and that Jerusalem, during the Millennium will be the seat of Jesus' reign. Why would Jesus destroy the city from which He plans to reign?

These are the kinds of logical and Scriptural inconsistencies that are present in the entire "Jerusalem whore" theolocial trainwreck.

[sweetycakes]

I would think it is time that all people on this thread should shake hands and cool down.

Brothers, this continuing to argue, name-call and bait one-another is not good.

Of course, people have different views. Because we are all different people.

But our differences in viewpoints don't justify arguments and bad-feelings between people.

I would advise that if a subject is going to cause friction between people, then we shouldn't 'go there', but rather agree not to 'discuss' the thing in question, in an endeavour to keep the peace between one another.

It shouldn't be necessary for the mods to come along and 'bang our heads together', or force us to shake hands, as though we were naughty children.

We are adults. What's more, we are Christians.

And I know y'all love each other really.

Now......how about that hand-shake?

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(Toni R @ Dec 3 2007, 08:04 PM)

It is too relavent - when the "Scriptural evidence" is filled with flawed applicatioins.

So now the scripture evidence is flawed. Get real

No, Nebula said that the evidence is filled with flawed applications. She did not say the Scripture is flawed, but rather the way it is being applied is flawed. You need to learn the difference.

I challenged these claims on separate fronts, and yet you have not defended the claims with evidence.

Your challenges are not even applicable to the scripture presented that point to a case for Jerusalem being the whore of Revelation 18.

No, she just presented challenges you cannot refute, so the only other option you have is brush aside any serious consideration of the challenges brought forth and get mad at the person who dared to oppose your view.

By the way, please note that I am not saying Jerusalem is the whore of Revelation 18, but I believe from the scriptural evidence presented, there is a strong case for it.

Really, that is why when I oppose your handling of this issue you accuse me rejecting "the truth?" The fact is, you argue this as someone who is quite convinced. For someone who is not convinced, you are fighting awfully hard to hold on to it.

[eric]

~ Sweety Cakes~ mmwuxx, sorry, bro I couldn't just help myself I liked it better when you were Stephen, but want I really want to say is "blessed are the peace makers." You are correct brother

[Kansasdad]

Luk 16:17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

The more I study the scriptures the more I realize there is to learn, but as far as the example kansasdad used concerning the verse underlined...

2Pe 3:1 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,

2Pe 3:2 that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.

2Pe 3:3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,

2Pe 3:4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."

2Pe 3:5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

2Pe 3:6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

2Pe 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2Pe 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

2Pe 3:13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

2Pe 3:15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,

2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

2Pe 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

...it is placed in scripture by inspiration of God and I do not believe it is nearly as insignificant as you propose it is. In fact, it is stressed that we should not let this fact escape our notice. The best explanation I have ever heard of the signifigance of understanding this is the cuckoo clock gears comparison. There are gears that are different sizes rotating inside a cuckoo clock. With the concept of time, we have a 24hr day gear, a thousand year day gear, and as spoken of in Revelation, an eternal day gear, and they are all working together to keep time. So yes, one day to God is eternal.

I have heard of the persecution during the time that John was inspired to write revelations, but I do not buy into any explanation that the symbolism will not have some signifigance with the choice of the number 144,000, although how I should interpret that remains questionable at the present time.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Now, concerning...

Rev 17:5 and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

Rev 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

I still do not see how ancient pagan rome IS the FULL fulfillment of this prophecy...

Rev 18:21 Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.

because I believe the prophecy is still working towards it's complete fulfillment until...

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

Rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

Rev 21:5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."

and...

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

I agree that the complete prophecy is not finished, obviously we are still around and everything has not been destroyed.

Lets look at the one day/thousand year verse and the one immediately following.

2Pe 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

You are correct scripture places an emphasis on this "take notice" but then look to the next verse. God is talking about concepts of time, humans vs. Gods and how they are very different. This is a message of encouragment and a call to repentance, not a literal measurment of time. In fact God suggest that because of our humaness we are not able to comprehend Gods measurment of time.

Lets look to the rest now. We see a description of ancient Rome. The symbolism fits perfectly, yet John then tells us that it won't end with Rome. He is specifically describing Rome but then tells us this same wickedness will continue to the end of days. The descriptions are of ancient Rome, the same wichedness will continue untill Jesus returns. The problem we have is that we try to take the descriptions and identify a current "model" Ancient Rome is the example of the wickedness that will continue, We see it played out through out history.

Or I could be completely wrong and the 1000 years could be literal, But as of now I don't think so, which of course is just my opinion.

God Bless,

K.D.

[MrsSealedEternal]

2Pe 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

You are correct scripture places an emphasis on this "take notice" but then look to the next verse. God is talking about concepts of time, humans vs. Gods and how they are very different. This is a message of encouragment and a call to repentance, not a literal measurment of time. In fact God suggest that because of our humaness we are not able to comprehend Gods measurment of time.

Well, I disagree. I think it is reasonable that most of us could comprehend the concepts of God's measurements of time. We keep track of time and use calendars, and that is evidence of this.

Gen 1:5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Gen 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

Gen 2:2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

Gen 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

As a note of interest, that is the only creation day in the Genesis account that does not end with an evening and morning statement.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

Heb 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Rev 22:5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

...An eternal day.

Lets look to the rest now. We see a description of ancient Rome. The symbolism fits perfectly, yet John then tells us that it won't end with Rome. He is specifically describing Rome but then tells us this same wickedness will continue to the end of days. The descriptions are of ancient Rome, the same wichedness will continue untill Jesus returns. The problem we have is that we try to take the descriptions and identify a current "model" Ancient Rome is the example of the wickedness that will continue, We see it played out through out history.

I agree that this makes sense.

Or I could be completely wrong and the 1000 years could be literal, But as of now I don't think so, which of course is just my opinion.

Prophecy is something we all prayerfully need to be thinking about it, me included, but I am seeing a clear picture in the scriptures that do set the size of the gears that have been put into motion in God's time keeping cuckoo clock.

God Bless,

K.D.

God Bless