The Great Whore of the Revelation (chp 18)

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Dec 12 2007, 06:15 PM)

The Jews who settled the land were mostly agnostic and atheist, and had no use or care for the Bible. They fulfilled Bible prophecy down to the last detail and had no idea who was guiding them. Had they been religious Jews, people could have said, it was not God, but just a bunch of religious fanatics trying to force Bible prophecy to come true. Ezekiel, in an obscure prophecy, tells us that part of Israel's restoration will include the return of the Shekel as Israel's currency, and today that is already true.

This is not true. They were orthodox Jews who lived peacefully in the area until the U.N. mandate that gave the land to the zionists occured.

You need to work on your facts, KatyAnn. The first Jews to settel the Land were Zionists, but were not religious Jews. Herzl for example, was not a religious Jew and was the founder of modern Zionism. The Zioists already owned the land by right of purchase, and this is confirmed by the 1936 Peel Commission Report. It states that the Zionists legally purchased the Land upon which Israel sits today. The UN Mandate was extremely short lived. The goal of the mandate was abandoned very shortly after its creation and over 75 % of the Land dictated by the mandate to go to the Jews was given not to Zionists, but to the Arabs. Even on the Land in which remained, Jews were not allowed to immigrate to the remaining 25%, which forced many Jews to remain in Europe who were trying to flee Hitler's madness but were instead, murdered in the death camps. So much for your "madate" argument.

It is known fact that the overwhelming majority of Jews both before and after the Holocaust who had the greatest part in settling the Land of Israel and building the nation were not religious Jews at all. Not that there were not religious Jews in the Land but they were and still are the minority.

Decendents of these orthodox Jews still live in Israel but refuse to recognize the Israeli government or to vote in their elections. They believe that according to the Torah the Jews are not to return to the land until the Messiah comes and dwells with them there. Since that is not the case they believe that the present nation state of Israel is not of God. One such group is call "Torah True Jews" though there are other groups which can be found by googling.

Yes, but the important fact you choose to omit or ignore is that that you are talking about groups like Neturei Karta who make up a decidedly minute portion of Orthodox Jewry. They do not represent the majority position among Orthodox Jewry in Israel, or even around the world, not by a long shot. They are not simply "Orthodox Jews." They are a very small, marginal group, which are not all that popular in Israel.

There is no need for you to try and treat these people as if their views are representative of Orthodox Jewry. That would simply be inaccurate. The Orthodox Jews in Israel are typicall very pro-Israel and work and operate in the government and support the sovereignty and legitimacy of the state of Israel.

Leave it to you to always try to find a way to try and delegitimize Israel's existance. Fortunately, God is a Zionist, and He has brought Israel into existance just as promised down to the last detail. All true Christians should be Zionists.

[Guest shiloh357]

People have 3 choices. They can listen 2 you, me, or they can look it up for themselves. I see no need to be insulting. Have a good evening.

I have not been insulting to you at all. I am just saying that your facts are inaccurate. Your "facts" are easily disproved by anyone who actually knows the history and dynamics of the conflict.

The fact remains that Israel sits on the exact parcels of Land God said they would would sit on. They purchased the Land we now call Israel in the exact locations specified in Jer. 32:44. They can look that up too. All they need is a map of Israel and a Bible and your position crumbles to dust.

[Guest shiloh357]

They were orthodox Jews who lived peacefully in the area until the U.N. mandate that gave the land to the zionists occured.

You say that the Orthodox lived peacefully until the Mandate. There was no peace for the Jews prior to the mandate. You seem to not know about the Arab pogroms like the pogrom of Safed in 1834. It was worse than the Hebron massacre of 1929. In fact, in the 1800s before the mandate Jews in cities like Safed, Tiberius and Jerusalem were the subject of very regular acts of violence like pogroms and other types of persecution. How about the Arab pogrom in Gedara, a Jewish city in 1901??? You live a in a world of myths and misinformation, where this issue is concerned KatyAnn. I know Jewish history like the back of my hand because I am a Jew and it is my best interest to know it.

[MrsSealedEternal]

Maybe it's just goes back to that...Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and the abominations of the earth...from back in the day of Nimrod/Osirus...

Rev 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction

Rev 17:11 "The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

[Guest shiloh357]

Maybe it's just goes back to that...Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and the abominations of the earth...from back in the day of Nimrod/Osirus...

Rev 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction

Rev 17:11 "The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

That is another reason why I see the whore as a system and not a literal city. Ancient Rome was not the "mother (origin) of harlotry or abominations.

[AnotherTraveler]

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:6-7 (KJV)

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Rev 12:14 (KJV)

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 17:3 (KJV)

Both the woman with the crown and the whore are in the wilderness, what does that mean?

[MrsSealedEternal]

Maybe it's just goes back to that...Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and the abominations of the earth...from back in the day of Nimrod/Osirus...

Rev 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction

Rev 17:11 "The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

That is another reason why I see the whore as a system and not a literal city. Ancient Rome was not the "mother (origin) of harlotry or abominations.

Hmmm...a system of governing the kingdoms of the world...I can see the connection and historically they did not originate from ancient rome, they were brought there and many can probably find their origins to Babel.

Gen 10:8 Now Cush became the father of Nimrod; he became a mighty one on the earth.

Gen 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; therefore it is said, "Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before the LORD."

Gen 10:10 The beginning of his kingdom was Babel and Erech and Accad and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

Gen 10:11 From that land he went forth into Assyria, and built Nineveh and Rehoboth-Ir and Calah,

[Guest shiloh357]

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:6-7 (KJV)

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Rev 12:14 (KJV)

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 17:3 (KJV)

Both the woman with the crown and the whore are in the wilderness, what does that mean?

What you have here are two different women. Revelation 12 is talking about Israel. Revelation 12:5 says that this woman gives birth to a Son who will shepherd the nations with an iron sceptor and it says in v.5 that the Son was caught to God and His throne. It is talking about Jesus who came through Israel, and His rule of the world during the Millennium after He returns to earth.

The difference between the women in these chapters is that in Rev. 12, the emphasis is on Christ and His millennial reign. Revelation 17 is focused on a "whore" that will rule the nations. Revelation 17 has nothing to do with Israel or Jerusalem. There is nothing in the text of Romans 17 that would lead anyone to conclude that Jerusalem/Israel are the intended meaning. The text of both Rev. 17 and 18 defy any possiblity of that kind of reading for the following reasons:

1. Jersualem has not, nor is prophesied to rule the nations at anytime BEFORE the return of Christ.

2. Neither Jerusalem or Israel are ever referred to as a "whore" in end time prophecies in either the OT or the teachings of Jesus.

3. The whore is called the "Mother (origin) of harlots and abominations. Israel has never been referred to as the place or seat of origin of the all the abominations. These "abominations" existed even before Abraham and certainly before Israel.

4. The whore will be a global commercial center but there are NO prophecies that predict or intimate that Israel in will ever be a global center of world commerce in the last days.

5. The overall description of the whore bears more resemblance to ancient Rome than Jersualem and Judea at the time John penned Revelation was under Roman rule and was nothing but a backwater province at that time. Jerusalem would never have entered the mind of any first century reader.

The ridiculous and baseless assertion that Jerusalem/Israel is the whore is based on a very weak and easily disproven assumption. It has to be read into the text of Revelation. The notion that the whore of Revelation is Israel is pretty much based on a hatred of Jews and of the nation of Israel and not upon sound biblical exegesis..

[eric]

This is a very long thread and a very informative, regarding information and disinformation. I have to go along mostly with what Shiloh has posted, There is no way I can equate the whore with either Jerusalem or Israel or even Rome for that matter.

There are babylons in every country in the world as far as I can see and our respective goverments are overflowing with them with others waiting in the wings to take their places. Bill Kissenger once predicted, the country which controls the fuel, will control the world and the counrty that controls the food, will control the people........ or words to that effect. Like Shiloh357, I believe that the whore is not a city, but like the anti christ, is a system that will try and usurp God's sovereignty.

I am one that hates conspiracy theorists, but what's happening today,I believe at any rate probably started since pre flood and the only part that Israel will play in this presnt day, is to be the light that will ignite the fuse that will start WW111 and so increase the speed of the return Of the Messiah

In my mind revelation is a record of events prohpesied to lead up to the last day. So I'll go now and do some more research. Pray for the peace of Israel!!!

[Guest shiloh357]

Maybe it's just goes back to that...Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and the abominations of the earth...from back in the day of Nimrod/Osirus...

Rev 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction

Rev 17:11 "The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

That is another reason why I see the whore as a system and not a literal city. Ancient Rome was not the "mother (origin) of harlotry or abominations.

However, John's readers understood the whore as a reference to Rome.

I am sure that the readers would have picked up on the similarities, and they definitely would have made that connection. However, that is not the "end of the road" where proper exegisis is concerned. There are parts that match the description of ancient Rome and there are parts that do not match, and you cannot simply disregard glaring dissimilarities simply becuase it is "apocolyptic" or "poetic."