Calvin vs. Arminius

[GoldenEagle]

Out of curiosity Larryt...

How do you view the two parables then?

Matt. 13:44-46

The Parable of the Hidden Treasure

⁴⁴ “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

The Parable of the Pearl of Great Price

⁴⁵ “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, ⁴⁶ who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

[larryt]

Out of curiosity Larryt...

How do you view the two parables then?

Matt. 13:44-46

The Parable of the Hidden Treasure

⁴⁴ “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

The Parable of the Pearl of Great Price

⁴⁵ “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, ⁴⁶ who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

They are parables. One does not arrive at doctrine through parables. Parables help to understand doctrine. The sheep hear the Master's voice and understand that salvation/eternal life/ heaven are of greater value than anything of this earth. These parables are not talking about HOW someone is saved but that those that are saved give up everything for the new life in Christ.

How do you see the direct statements of the Lord that He will not loose any that the Father has given to Him?

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[OneLight]

Free will is seen as the ability to make choices. If we did not have free will, then none would be saved according to your definitions, for we would never be able to choose a different life than one that we were born into. That is the problem of pure predestination, it removes us as His creation, given the ability to be in His image.

You are correct that barring the intervention of Jesus Christ, none would be saved. None would seek after God. Man has the ability to make choices but he WILL NOT believe unless he gets a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. This is God's prevenient grace.

Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.

Ps 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.

So I guess that you do not believe that the natural man is spiritually dead, blind, lame, deaf..... Just wounded?

We cannot and do not receive a heart of flesh until after salvation. Until their sins are forgiven, their heart remain hardened. That is why the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts a person of their sins. They do not come into this knowledge by themselves.

This is a point that I disagree with. The doctrine of Total depravity says that man will not submit himself to God and seek salvation. It is totally against the his fallen/carnal nature.

God says that there is none that seek after Him, there are none that understand. You say that there are some that do in fact seek after God on their own and need no help in asking for salvtion.

Who said man was seeking God? I didn't. I said that the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin, which is God seeking man. You have it backwards in the way you are looking at this.

Why would you assume that I do not believe the natural man is spiritually dead, blind, lame and deaf?

You just said that man gets the heart of flesh after salvation. So how does a spiritually dead person live unless he is given life? .....the spiritually blind man see unless he is given eyes to see? .... the lame made to walk or the deaf have his ears loosed.

You seem to believe that man is capable of seeking God. God says he isn't. His nature corrupt as it is will not seek after God unless God does something first.

Will Jesus loose any that the Father gave to Him? He said He would not. He is going to make sure that every sheep of His makes it. Those that are not His sheep do not hear His words.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Why do the pharasees not believe?

I refer back to my explanation above. God pricks the heart of man through the Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin while his heart is in a harden state. It is not until after we have the Holy Spirit in us that He is able to create in us a new creation.

[larryt]

Free will is seen as the ability to make choices. If we did not have free will, then none would be saved according to your definitions, for we would never be able to choose a different life than one that we were born into. That is the problem of pure predestination, it removes us as His creation, given the ability to be in His image.

You are correct that barring the intervention of Jesus Christ, none would be saved. None would seek after God. Man has the ability to make choices but he WILL NOT believe unless he gets a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. This is God's prevenient grace.

Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.

Ps 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.

So I guess that you do not believe that the natural man is spiritually dead, blind, lame, deaf..... Just wounded?

We cannot and do not receive a heart of flesh until after salvation. Until their sins are forgiven, their heart remain hardened. That is why the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts a person of their sins. They do not come into this knowledge by themselves.

This is a point that I disagree with. The doctrine of Total depravity says that man will not submit himself to God and seek salvation. It is totally against the his fallen/carnal nature.

God says that there is none that seek after Him, there are none that understand. You say that there are some that do in fact seek after God on their own and need no help in asking for salvtion.

Who said man was seeking God? I didn't. I said that the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin, which is God seeking man. You have it backwards in the way you are looking at this.

Why would you assume that I do not believe the natural man is spiritually dead, blind, lame and deaf?

You just said that man gets the heart of flesh after salvation. So how does a spiritually dead person live unless he is given life? .....the spiritually blind man see unless he is given eyes to see? .... the lame made to walk or the deaf have his ears loosed.

You seem to believe that man is capable of seeking God. God says he isn't. His nature corrupt as it is will not seek after God unless God does something first.

Will Jesus loose any that the Father gave to Him? He said He would not. He is going to make sure that every sheep of His makes it. Those that are not His sheep do not hear His words.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Why do the pharasees not believe?

I refer back to my explanation above. God pricks the heart of man through the Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin while his heart is in a harden state. It is not until after we have the Holy Spirit in us that He is able to create in us a new creation.

Where do you get that in scripture. Where did it say God pricks the heart? What does that mean to say God pricks the heart? Because God convicts the world of sin does not imply that they will believe.

I don't know about you but I am one of the elect, chosen before the foundation of the world by the Father and given to the Son that He should find me and give me eternal life. In due time God revealed His Son in me the same as Paul. Gal 1:15-16

So one person chooses and another doesn't. And how does that fit with John 6 & 10 above. Also

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

did they believe because they were ordained to etenal life as the scripture says or were they ordained to eternal life because they believe.

And you have not explained how a dead man can do anything.

[Fez]

larryt

And you have not explained how a dead man can do anything.

Would you like to talk to one? An ex dead man I mean.

OneLight

I refer back to my explanation above. God pricks the heart of man through the Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin while his heart is in a harden state. It is not until after we have the Holy Spirit in us that He is able to create in us a new creation.

I know from my experience that OneLight is correct. My heart was hard, stone, and God had to crush it, prick it, rebuild it, over a period of months before I accepted Jesus. I knew it was the Holy Spirit talking to me in that hardened state, and I fought against Him, often just lying on the bed sobbing, why me, why me?

I had the choice to continue in my sinful state, or I had the choice to choose Jesus.

And I knew this. The alternative of not choosing Jesus, which the Holy Spirit had shown to me, was an awful place.

So this dead man walked. (seems like he could do something)

[OneLight]

Where do you get that in scripture. Where did it say God pricks the heart? What does that mean to say God pricks the heart? Because God convicts the world of sin does not imply that they will believe.

When the Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin, where does this take place? Is it in the body? Nope, the body does not hold our spirit. The mind? No, because in the mind we can just brush it off as a thought, but the heart is a place where we cannot ignore. God spoke of the intent of the heart in Genesis 6:5 "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

The phrase "prick the heart" is a descriptive phrase describing what is going on, like "stub your toe".

I don't know about you but I am one of the elect, chosen before the foundation of the world by the Father and given to the Son that He should find me and give me eternal life. In due time God revealed His Son in me the same as Paul. Gal 1:15-16

So one person chooses and another doesn't. And how does that fit with John 6 & 10 above. Also

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

did they believe because they were ordained to etenal life as the scripture says or were they ordained to eternal life because they believe.

And you have not explained how a dead man can do anything.

The idea of predestination without foreknowledge is either the result of taking scripture out of context or not knowing all of what scripture has to say about the subject of predestination. We must take all of scripture into account when we come to an understanding. If we do not, we can easily be led astray with having just partial understanding.

We read about foreknowledge being before predestination in Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

What does it mean that God foreknew? Foreknew what? God, being Omniscient and Omnipresence is able to look through time to know who will and who will not choose Him. This means that everything that ever happened, is happening and will happen is in front of Him always. The idea that God chooses whom He will without the person ever having a choice goes against the very reason why Jesus came. The verse that is most popular in the whole world is John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." If predestination was true without choice, this would not be in scripture. It would have to read something like "For God so loved His chosen that He gave His only begotten Son, that those whom He chose would not perish but have everlasting life". But God chose the words "world", whoever" and "should" for a reason. It describes choice.

[larryt]

larryt

And you have not explained how a dead man can do anything.

Would you like to talk to one? An ex dead man I mean.

I am an ex-dead man. He gave me life and then I lived, He opened my eyes and then I saw, He took away the stony heart and put in a heart of flesh that I could believe.

We are saved by grace -- getting everything that we need even though we don't deserve it; through faith and that is even the gift of God.

OneLight

I refer back to my explanation above. God pricks the heart of man through the Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin while his heart is in a harden state. It is not until after we have the Holy Spirit in us that He is able to create in us a new creation.

I know from my experience that OneLight is correct. My heart was hard, stone, and God had to crush it, prick it, rebuild it, over a period of months before I accepted Jesus. I knew it was the Holy Spirit talking to me in that hardened state, and I fought against Him, often just lying on the bed sobbing, why me, why me?

I had the choice to continue in my sinful state, or I had the choice to choose Jesus.

And I knew this. The alternative of not choosing Jesus, which the Holy Spirit had shown to me, was an awful place.

So this dead man walked. (seems like he could do something)

So you deserve some of the glory because you could do it on your own. That doesn't give Christ ALL THE GLORY! now does it.

What does it mean to be called according to His purpose? What does it mean to be chosen in Him before the foundation of the world?

And you will need to explain the verses I posted to Onelight in light of your "free" will. Will Jesus loose any that the Father gave to Him? Will any that were given to Him not come to Him? Did the Lord make sure you would want/will to believe in Him or did you do that on your own.

[Fez]

larryt

And you have not explained how a dead man can do anything.

Would you like to talk to one? An ex dead man I mean.

I am an ex-dead man. He gave me life and then I lived, He opened my eyes and then I saw, He took away the stony heart and put in a heart of flesh that I could believe.

We are saved by grace -- getting everything that we need even though we don't deserve it; through faith and that is even the gift of God.

OneLight

I refer back to my explanation above. God pricks the heart of man through the Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin while his heart is in a harden state. It is not until after we have the Holy Spirit in us that He is able to create in us a new creation.

I know from my experience that OneLight is correct. My heart was hard, stone, and God had to crush it, prick it, rebuild it, over a period of months before I accepted Jesus. I knew it was the Holy Spirit talking to me in that hardened state, and I fought against Him, often just lying on the bed sobbing, why me, why me?

I had the choice to continue in my sinful state, or I had the choice to choose Jesus.

And I knew this. The alternative of not choosing Jesus, which the Holy Spirit had shown to me, was an awful place.

So this dead man walked. (seems like he could do something)

So you deserve some of the glory because you could do it on your own. That doesn't give Christ ALL THE GLORY! now does it.

What does it mean to be called according to His purpose? What does it mean to be chosen in Him before the foundation of the world?

And you will need to explain the verses I posted to Onelight in light of your "free" will. Will Jesus loose any that the Father gave to Him? Will any that were given to Him not come to Him? Did the Lord make sure you would want/will to believe in Him or did you do that on your own.

Now where on earth do you get the idea I could do it on my own? The very reason He broke my pride was to save me.

And no, I will not go down the predestination road debate with you.

[larryt]

larryt

And you have not explained how a dead man can do anything.

Would you like to talk to one? An ex dead man I mean.

I am an ex-dead man. He gave me life and then I lived, He opened my eyes and then I saw, He took away the stony heart and put in a heart of flesh that I could believe.

We are saved by grace -- getting everything that we need even though we don't deserve it; through faith and that is even the gift of God.

OneLight

I refer back to my explanation above. God pricks the heart of man through the Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin while his heart is in a harden state. It is not until after we have the Holy Spirit in us that He is able to create in us a new creation.

I know from my experience that OneLight is correct. My heart was hard, stone, and God had to crush it, prick it, rebuild it, over a period of months before I accepted Jesus. I knew it was the Holy Spirit talking to me in that hardened state, and I fought against Him, often just lying on the bed sobbing, why me, why me?

I had the choice to continue in my sinful state, or I had the choice to choose Jesus.

And I knew this. The alternative of not choosing Jesus, which the Holy Spirit had shown to me, was an awful place.

So this dead man walked. (seems like he could do something)

So you deserve some of the glory because you could do it on your own. That doesn't give Christ ALL THE GLORY! now does it.

What does it mean to be called according to His purpose? What does it mean to be chosen in Him before the foundation of the world?

And you will need to explain the verses I posted to Onelight in light of your "free" will. Will Jesus loose any that the Father gave to Him? Will any that were given to Him not come to Him? Did the Lord make sure you would want/will to believe in Him or did you do that on your own.

Now where on earth do you get the idea I could do it on my own? The very reason He broke my pride was to save me.

Isn't that what you said?

So this dead man walked. (seems like he could do something)

And no, I will not go down the predestination road debate with you.

The bible uses the word predestination 4 times. It only mentions born again once. You don't want to discuss these verses?

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

[saved34]

Free will is seen as the ability to make choices. If we did not have free will, then none would be saved according to your definitions, for we would never be able to choose a different life than one that we were born into. That is the problem of pure predestination, it removes us as His creation, given the ability to be in His image.

You are correct that barring the intervention of Jesus Christ, none would be saved. None would seek after God. Man has the ability to make choices but he WILL NOT believe unless he gets a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. This is God's prevenient grace.

Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.

Ps 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.

So I guess that you do not believe that the natural man is spiritually dead, blind, lame, deaf..... Just wounded?

We cannot and do not receive a heart of flesh until after salvation. Until their sins are forgiven, their heart remain hardened. That is why the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts a person of their sins. They do not come into this knowledge by themselves.

This is a point that I disagree with. The doctrine of Total depravity says that man will not submit himself to God and seek salvation. It is totally against the his fallen/carnal nature.

God says that there is none that seek after Him, there are none that understand. You say that there are some that do in fact seek after God on their own and need no help in asking for salvtion.

Who said man was seeking God? I didn't. I said that the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin, which is God seeking man. You have it backwards in the way you are looking at this.

Why would you assume that I do not believe the natural man is spiritually dead, blind, lame and deaf?

You just said that man gets the heart of flesh after salvation. So how does a spiritually dead person live unless he is given life? .....the spiritually blind man see unless he is given eyes to see? .... the lame made to walk or the deaf have his ears loosed.

You seem to believe that man is capable of seeking God. God says he isn't. His nature corrupt as it is will not seek after God unless God does something first.

Will Jesus loose any that the Father gave to Him? He said He would not. He is going to make sure that every sheep of His makes it. Those that are not His sheep do not hear His words.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Why do the pharasees not believe?

I refer back to my explanation above. God pricks the heart of man through the Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin while his heart is in a harden state. It is not until after we have the Holy Spirit in us that He is able to create in us a new creation.

Where do you get that in scripture. Where did it say God pricks the heart? What does that mean to say God pricks the heart? Because God convicts the world of sin does not imply that they will believe.

I don't know about you but I am one of the elect, chosen before the foundation of the world by the Father and given to the Son that He should find me and give me eternal life. In due time God revealed His Son in me the same as Paul. Gal 1:15-16

So one person chooses and another doesn't. And how does that fit with John 6 & 10 above. Also

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

did they believe because they were ordained to etenal life as the scripture says or were they ordained to eternal life because they believe.

And you have not explained how a dead man can do anything.

Larry, how do you understand the verses in scripture that say:

Heb 3:15 while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."

If God's grace is irresistible as Calvinist say, and only the elect will "hear" from God, who are these that can harden their hearts?

Also brother, how do you see the warnings of Hebrews 6? Let me preface this by saying, I am not a Calvinist, but I do believe in eternal security, I do believe in Biblical election. I reject any notion that God just leaves some men to their doom as scripture does not teach this. Getting back to Hebrews 6, this speaks of an individual who is actually made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, they tasted the word of God and have experienced the powers of the world to come, yet they fall away or Apostatize. The Elect can never perish, or fall away, I think we can both agree on that, so who are these people the Holy Spirit is referring to? These who have been "enlightened", yet still shrink back into unbelief.

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Seems to me that the Calvinist doctrine that God does not enlighten the unsaved(those who will never believe) is in direct contrast to Holy scripture. God has never just left a man or woman to their doom, he gives them his righteous demands, he gives them light, which is why they will stand guilty before him.

God said because they refused to believe is the reason he will damn them, not because he made them that way, or because he would not enlighten them. On the contrary, he said the very reason he would harden them is because they would...not...receive...his ...truth.

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.