Calvin vs. Arminius

[Guest CommonGrace]

The bible teaches limited atonement. (particular redemption)

"14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."

The death of Christ actually secured and accomplised the salvation of those whom God has chosen to give to him. Whoever heard of a redemption that doesn't redeem, a propitiation that doesn't propitiate, a reconciliation that doesn't reconcile or a salvation that doesn't save. In any case please show how 1 John 2:2 supports unlimited atonement.

Anyone can make assertions.

[asper]

For those who are not familiar with the debate or the acronyms, here is a brief summation of both.

Jacobus Arminius was a Professor of Divinity at Leyden University in Holland at the turn of the seventeenth century. He was the protege of Theodore Beza, who was John Calvin's successor. Arminius was a strict Calvinist early on, but later he developed a set of doctrines that were divergient from the widely accepted doctrines of Calvinism. Arminius's teachings concerning sin, selection, predestination, and eternal security attracted a following. Some time after his death in 1609 some of his followers consolidated his teachings into 5 concise points (Later identified by the acronym DAISY) and presented them in a formal letter of Remonstrance (or objection) to the Reformed Church of Holland in 1618. The Church conducted a formal inquiry into the claims of the Arminians, and thus, the Synod of Dort was formed. In 1619 the Arminians got their answers in the form of an article known as The Canons of the Synod of Dort. The synod answered each of the five points presented by the Arminians with five contrary points that we now call "The Five Points of Calvinism," otherwise known by the acronym TULIP. Thus, the Synod of Dort absolutely rejected Arminianism as heretical, and confirmed Calvinism as the true doctrine of Christ's church.

However, far from being dispelled, the controversy between these two doctrines exists in the church today. Although both Arminius' and Calvin's doctrines go much further and much deeper than the "boiled down" points outlined by the acronyms, they do suffice to provide the basics of what each theolgical position entails. The acronyms are provided below:

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>Calvinism</span>

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>Arminianism</span>

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Although we can debate the points here, the goal is just to see where you stand theologically. I personally am more Calvinist than I am Arminian. Some Christians have found a balance between both views, and so are more like 50/50.

So, if we are to debate these points, let's keep it healthy - especially when we get to the matter of eternal security. None of this, "Well you're going to hell if you fool yourself into believing..." Let us all remember that our salvation has been afforded by Christ, and our basis either way is in His blood.

So......where do you stand?

Endnote: The texts of TULIP and DAISY were cut-and-pasted from http://www.lifegoeson.net/InTruth/calvarmn.htm Credit where credit is due.

i kind of stick with calvin on this issue. although God saves His elect that does not mean others are not commanded to come. they will not come, nor do they have a desire to come.

quote from calvin

[see CALBOOK 04040]

We said yesterday that the Prophet denounced future calamities, that he might thus stimulate men, distressed by many evils, to seek God: we indeed know how tardy we are by nature, except the Lord goads us continually. The subject, then, on which we discoursed yesterday tended to show, that as so many and so grievous calamities would press on the Jews, all would be miserable who fled not to God, and that this consolation only would remain to them in their extreme evils: but now the Prophet seasonably adds, Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered. Having then stimulated men to seek God, he now gives them firm assurance of being saved, provided they in sincerity and from the heart fled to God.

This is indeed a remarkable passage, for God declares that the invocation of his name in a despairing condition is a sure port of safety. What the Prophet had said was certainly dreadful,

Edited May 31, 2008 by asper

[Khristeeanos]

Kind of silly to be arguing about topics like this. Calvin created a doctrine after 1,500 years of church history and people accept it?

That is the definition of silly.

[mrs]

Please study up on church history and doctrines.

The doctrines of grace aka the Tulip did not originate from Calvin. In actuality they were drawn up as a point by point response by a large church counsel in their condemnation of some heresy that was being spread in the church.

[BurnForChrist]

Kind of silly to be arguing about topics like this. Calvin created a doctrine after 1,500 years of church history and people accept it?

That is the definition of silly.

On the contrary John Calvin didnt create anything as far as TULIP. In fact he didn't even write or originate the points. So please dont make the misconception as every else does that Calvin made up the 5 Points when it was in response to Arminianism by men after Calvin had already died. Also the 5 Points then were not even "created" as if they were some new doctrine in church history. They explained best as what the scriptures revealed and taught as far as Salvation, the depravity of man, election, sanctification, etc.

Burn

Edited June 2, 2008 by BurnForChrist

[kjn]

Conclusion:

(4) Since not all are saved, not all are drawn.

Therefore we can safely show from the Scriptures that God does NOT draw all men.

John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

[mrs]

Conclusion:

(4) Since not all are saved, not all are drawn.

Therefore we can safely show from the Scriptures that God does NOT draw all men.

John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

It can not be any clearly than what Jesus says in this passage.

[Godfearer]

please read all of this as it may help bring you a deeper knowledge of christ. it deals with my experiences and my walk previously.

1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

this is the scripture God led me to when i had fallen in sin and then repented. he will give you chance upon chance but there is a point when you can forsake (turn away) Him and he will cast you off forever, as scripture says.

also look into the word dog/dogs in scripture.

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Pro 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. (backsliding)

Php 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

before i repented this is the scripture God gave me when i asked for him to speak to me in his word:

Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

this sums up if you can be cast off:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

however God always makes a way If we obey and are humble:

Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

praise God for he is our salvation. obedience is so very important.

Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Godfearer

[LadyRaven]

I'm a tulip, though I rarely get involved in the debate.

I saw this, however and thought it might add something to the conversation, even if it's just some levity.

[Mudcat]

I couldn't vote....

there was no choice for Molinist