Calvin vs. Arminius

[His_disciple3]

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

this ordain has nothing to do with election or predestination. they were in their ordained assigned area.

That is a real stretch. Simple grammar says your exegesis is flawed. The object of the verb ordain is eternal life in the qualifying phrase. As many as were supposed to be saved, as many as were chosen before the foundation of the world, believed.

also you take one verse that may help your cause, but fail to post the one that may hurt your cause!

Acts 13:46

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

KJV

the jews put salvation off and judged themselves unworthy of everlasting, God didn't cast them out. the word, the gospel was presented to them first, but they rejected it. THEY had a chance but refused THEY!!! THEY judged themselves not God. wow I just love revelation from scriptures, certainly sounds like these men had a say, just as the three that refused to attend the great supper!

They did not believe because they were not His sheep. But you are right, they did choose. Their eyes were not opened, they could not see.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

The effect is that the pharisees did not believe BECAUSE they were not His sheep.

Will Jesus loose any of His sheep????? I think not. He will find every single one and not loose any.

and if one sheep strays away He will forsake the 99 and seek the one. If calvinism is right, and God Forces Himself on people, all he would have to do is call the lost sheep and it would have to return, but no your sheep example says that He leaves the others to find the Lost sheep. so who is the lost sheep? I didn't say that any sheep would get lost, the scriptures did, save/except Judas maybe. as scriptures also says, also i may have stretched some but not as far as you saying that it says that they believed cause they were ordained. I have already showed through the Great supper that some were elected/ordained/ invited just choose a word fill in the blank, but don't deny that 3 that were choosenand didn't get in, because they refused to go.

Edited July 19, 2012 by His_disciple3

[larryt]

and if one sheep strays away He will forsake the 99 and seek the one.

This is a real stretch of what the verse says. It does not say FORSAKE. This is a PARABLE used in conveying a message. The message is that Jesus care so much for each and every sheep that He will go and find any that are lose.

If calvinism is right, and God Forces Himself on people, all he would have to do is call the lost sheep and it would have to return,

This is another one of your straw man, preconceived misconceptions. The bible never says that God forces Himself on man against his will. It is a conclusion based on your misunderstanding.

but no your sheep example says that He leaves the others to find the Lost sheep. so who is the lost sheep?

All those who have not heard the gospel and been converted. Keep in mind that Peter was converted AFTER the resurrection.

Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

I didn't say that any sheep would get lost, the scriptures did, save/except Judas maybe. as scriptures also says, also i may have stretched some but not as far as you saying that it says that they believed cause they were ordained.

Judas was not a sheep, he was a devil.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

I have already showed through the Great supper that some were elected/ordained/ invited just choose a word fill in the blank, but don't deny that 3 that were choosenand didn't get in, because they refused to go.

Because they were invited does not mean they were elected. Those that were the elect accepted the invitation. This is a parable and used to illustrate a point.

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Re 17:14 ¶ These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

[His_disciple3]

and if one sheep strays away He will forsake the 99 and seek the one.

This is a real stretch of what the verse says. It does not say FORSAKE. This is a PARABLE used in conveying a message. The message is that Jesus care so much for each and every sheep that He will go and find any that are lose.

If calvinism is right, and God Forces Himself on people, all he would have to do is call the lost sheep and it would have to return,

This is another one of your straw man, preconceived misconceptions. The bible never says that God forces Himself on man against his will. It is a conclusion based on your misunderstanding.

but no your sheep example says that He leaves the others to find the Lost sheep. so who is the lost sheep?

All those who have not heard the gospel and been converted. Keep in mind that Peter was converted AFTER the resurrection.

Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

I didn't say that any sheep would get lost, the scriptures did, save/except Judas maybe. as scriptures also says, also i may have stretched some but not as far as you saying that it says that they believed cause they were ordained.

Judas was not a sheep, he was a devil.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

I have already showed through the Great supper that some were elected/ordained/ invited just choose a word fill in the blank, but don't deny that 3 that were choosenand didn't get in, because they refused to go.

Because they were invited does not mean they were elected. Those that were the elect accepted the invitation. This is a parable and used to illustrate a point.

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Re 17:14 ¶ These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

good verse but I think a true calvinist would stay away from many are called but few are chosen, doesn't that contradict irresistable/invincable grace

[larryt]

and if one sheep strays away He will forsake the 99 and seek the one.

This is a real stretch of what the verse says. It does not say FORSAKE. This is a PARABLE used in conveying a message. The message is that Jesus care so much for each and every sheep that He will go and find any that are lose.

If calvinism is right, and God Forces Himself on people, all he would have to do is call the lost sheep and it would have to return,

This is another one of your straw man, preconceived misconceptions. The bible never says that God forces Himself on man against his will. It is a conclusion based on your misunderstanding.

but no your sheep example says that He leaves the others to find the Lost sheep. so who is the lost sheep?

All those who have not heard the gospel and been converted. Keep in mind that Peter was converted AFTER the resurrection.

Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

I didn't say that any sheep would get lost, the scriptures did, save/except Judas maybe. as scriptures also says, also i may have stretched some but not as far as you saying that it says that they believed cause they were ordained.

Judas was not a sheep, he was a devil.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

I have already showed through the Great supper that some were elected/ordained/ invited just choose a word fill in the blank, but don't deny that 3 that were choosenand didn't get in, because they refused to go.

Because they were invited does not mean they were elected. Those that were the elect accepted the invitation. This is a parable and used to illustrate a point.

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Re 17:14 ¶ These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

good verse but I think a true calvinist would stay away from many are called but few are chosen, doesn't that contradict irresistable/invincable grace

Absolutely not. Saving grace is only for the chosen. It is invincible and irresistible in the end.

The called but not chosen have ears but do not hear.

Ac 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Ro 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

[His_disciple3]

Judas was not a sheep, he was a devil.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

I think you argue with scriptures on this one Jesus was the One that Said I have kept that that you gave Me, save one.

Jesus also adress the devil one time while speaking to Peter, maybe they all had a little devil in them?

John 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

KJV

and you really can't use this verse or the thought that He has kept all, for He says this pertains to While He was in the World, unless of course only the elect were the ones given to him while He was in the World, which of course would be the 11 Jewish/Israelite dicsiples , now we may be barking up the right tree

[larryt]

Judas was not a sheep, he was a devil.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

I think you argue with scriptures on this one Jesus was the One that Said I have kept that that you gave Me, save one.

Jesus also adress the devil one time while speaking to Peter, maybe they all had a little devil in them?

John 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

KJV

and you really can't use this verse or the thought that He has kept all, for He says this pertains to While He was in the World, unless of course only the elect were the ones given to him while He was in the World, which of course would be the 11 Jewish/Israelite dicsiples , now we may be barking up the right tree

Jesus said he was a devil and the son of perdition that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I have no argument with that.

[wingnut-]

If salvation were assigned by God, and man has no say regarding it, then why bother with life as we know it? Pre-destination makes absolutely no sense to me, if God wanted robots then He would have just made it so. I am not good with chapter and verse recollection, but doesn't it say somewhere in Joshua "Choose you this day whom ye will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."? Doesn't sound to me like Joshua believed in pre-destination.

[larryt]

If salvation were assigned by God, and man has no say regarding it, then why bother with life as we know it? Pre-destination makes absolutely no sense to me, if God wanted robots then He would have just made it so. I am not good with chapter and verse recollection, but doesn't it say somewhere in Joshua "Choose you this day whom ye will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."? Doesn't sound to me like Joshua believed in pre-destination.

You make two contrdictory assumptions. Because God chooses whom He will save and whom He leaves alone does not mean that man has no say in the matter. I understand that you do not understand predestination. Is predestination referred to in the bible? It is in 4 verses so you need to study and see what the bible says about it and why it is there. Because we choose does not preclude predestination.

[His_disciple3]

If salvation were assigned by God, and man has no say regarding it, then why bother with life as we know it? Pre-destination makes absolutely no sense to me, if God wanted robots then He would have just made it so. I am not good with chapter and verse recollection, but doesn't it say somewhere in Joshua "Choose you this day whom ye will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."? Doesn't sound to me like Joshua believed in pre-destination.

You make two contrdictory assumptions. Because God chooses whom He will save and whom He leaves alone does not mean that man has no say in the matter. I understand that you do not understand predestination. Is predestination referred to in the bible? It is in 4 verses so you need to study and see what the bible says about it and why it is there. Because we choose does not preclude predestination.

and "BY HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE" is also referred to in scriptures, not just a random pick as calvinist preaches, scriptures refer to a standard God has for His people, Who is Israel ? God has before time begin as we know it, predestined a standard on whom He will have mercy, not that anyone ever deserves His mercy, that is why it is Mercy, But His standard is that there is only One Way, One Name That anyone will ever be redeemed By, and Whosoever calls upon that Name, shall be saved.

Edited July 30, 2012 by His_disciple3

[rjp34652]

Since this thread deals with the Calvinistic Gospel vs the Arminian Gospel and you say there is a third the burden is on you to present your evidence with scripture. My position is clear in my previous posts. Your position has not even been stated and until you do you are the one that must prove something.

My position has been stated. It hasn't been accepted. Not my problem.

point #1

If there is no free will, then there can be no such thing as sin.

point #2

The fact that there are fools in the world is proof that man has free will.

point #3

God's will shall be accomplished, fools notwithstanding.

There are two types of folks who are saved.

Most people fall into the first group who are the called, who have responded by personal decision.

A few are chosen leaders who are selected, groomed and used of God for His purposes.

(Matt 22:14)

We see both in fact, in history and in scripture.

I submit that the answer is not

Calvin vs. Arminius

-but-

Calvin + Arminius

Men have drawn a line with their ideologies and with their scripture quotations for hundreds of years and they are no closer to resolving the situation today than they were in the beginning of the debate. Our Lord has been very revealing with the things He has shown us about the Kingdom of God. Why do you suppose He stopped short and did not draw a line of distinction? Did He do it just to create divisions among us, to create arguments and distortions of the truth or did He do it because THERE IS NO LINE?

I suggest that there is a third option, which is outside the box and beyond the lines drawn by man. I suggest that God is firmly and eminently capable of operating in BOTH capacities. Some He chooses. These cannot resist. Most He calls, invites, requests and asks. This is the mystery revealed in Matt 22:14. The answer is that there is no line. God is not in a box and He can operate as He pleases; calling some and choosing others.

My purpose is not to bring God down to the level of man. To say that the Almighty MUST behave according to the understanding of man.

My purpose is to attempt to bring man up to the level of God or at the very least to acknowledge that God's ways are not the ways of man.

Men always stumble when they attempt to create a formula to contain God. It never works.

When men bow to the grace and glory and limitless hand of God, we win.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...