Pre-destiny or Choice

[Ovedya]

The problem is that we try and understand things like election given our understanding of and our orientation with respect to time. We tend to see everything in a linear way. God is outside of time. He dwells in the past, present, and future simultaneously

Exactly.

We are here and now. God is.

[Smalcald]

The problem is that we try and understand things like election given our understanding of and our orientation with respect to time. We tend to see everything in a linear way. God is outside of time. He dwells in the past, present, and future simultaneously

Yes I agree.

Maybe in some ways part of faith is accepting that we don't know and will NOT know in this earth, and thus resisting the urge to rush in with our own answers to finish what we feel are unanswered questions. I guess in some ways this is a form of pride, the urge to tell about what God really meant to say if He had told us? I know I always want to come up with answers to some of these questions with my own ideas.

[DjZed]

I must 1st start off by appoligizing to patricia and all the readers here. But most of all to our god for misrepresting who he is. I made the comment " predestined for wrath" in two replies. I do not believe this. I do not hold to that thought and will not try to excuse it. Please do not let this hinder our discussions. Thank you guys for calling that one out.

Now in response to the comment onwingsasaneagle made "Predestination is so unfair to the people not predestined to goto heaven" What i am saying is that you,me and all who have ever believed were guilty. We deserved what the unbelievers will get. So the whole world is guilty and deserves to be seperated from god eternally. That is what we deserved too. So in all true fairness it is we who get what we dont deserve. unbelievers get what they deserve. That is justice, and it is mercy that is given to the believer. It is fair for them. its not an issue of fairness. Its about gods sovergn choice of people.

I say that because of my views of who is being talked about in romans 9 or the whole layout of romans for that matter. So if i believe that the vessels of wrath are unbelievers then i am forced to say that your choice is a work based on how i see the scripture. VRS 23 and 24 is what tends to point me to seeing the context as being about believers and unbelievers, as well as others scripture in romans. If that is the case then paul is making the point that it is about believers in contrast with unbelievers. Gods choice not mans. That is why i brought up merit.

Response to 1 thess. 4:1

You siad " we are able to look towards god to please Him" I dont disagree, but i see the key in the scripture as well as your statement as being "brethren" and "We" , Belivers.

Romans 8:7,8

The mind set on the flesh is hostile toward god; it does not subject itself to the law of god and is not able to do so. Those in the flesh cannot please god.(unbelievers)

However you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit dwells in you.( believers).(believers are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if the Spirit is actually in them, if the Spirit is not in them they cannot please god.)

So in your view, is your choice pleasing to god?

Edited January 4, 2008 by DjZed

[DjZed]

"We love him, because he first loved us" 1 John 4:19

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53:6

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" 2 Corinthians 5:17

"As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us." Psalm 103:12

"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. " John 8:36

it doesn't mean you chose redemption, you only receive redemption.

When You Look At The Huge Distance God Reaches Down To Offer Us His Salvation It Sure Does Seems Like We Do Nothing.....

"The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." Jeremiah 31:3

Then I Read..... Choose You This Day Whom Ye Will Serve

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

And Again When I Read..... Whosoever Will Let Him Take The Water Of Life Freely

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:16-17

I'm Led To Believe That God Really Did Mean It When He Offered The Lord Jesus Up For ALL Men To See And To Believe In And To Have Everlasting Life!

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:14-16

If We Would Just Repent

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;" Acts 3:19

Just Confess And Believe

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10

And By His Grace, God Even Offers The Very Faith Needed For Salvation

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

If We Would But Believe God.....

"They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him." Psalms 126:5-6

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

I know where your coming from. i personally do not think these are contrary to election. The preaching of the gospel is heard and those who are his hear him.

[patricia1]

Thank-you so much for the apology and you are forgiven dear...mistakes, misinterpretations of what is being said is not rare here. We get a thought and sometimes do not convey things properly...believe me I KNOW!!! LOL patricia1

[Guest]

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved ? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. " Matthew 19:24-26

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53:6

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:8-11

God wants All to be saved 1st tim 2:4 and it is his will that none should parish 2nd pet 3:9

Those that perish are not saved and therefore perish because they deny Jesus Christ,not because God willed them to hell.

"Of sin, because they believe not on me;" John 16:9

The Heart Of Faith - The Lord Jesus Christ

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:2

He Started It - He Finished It

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2

No Daisy - No Tulip - No Weeds - No Brag - Just Jesus! Jesus! Jesus!

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Want To Meditate Upon Flowers

"I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys. As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters." Song of Solomon 2:1-2

Meditate Upon Jesus

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." Philippians 4:8

And Upon Every Word That Proceedeth Out Of The Mouth Of God

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." John 15:3

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Thaddaeus]

to All,

I have been gone a almost a week and find two discussion closed because it was seemingly going in circles and the second started and stopped to prevent the same circle, presumably.

'Those that understood the arguments presented in those threads, are the same one in this thread, so far, that have some grasp of this supposedly paradox or contradiction between predestination and choice.

The misunderstanding here stems from the same cause of misunderstanding in the other threads.

The op is making the presentation and thus calling attention to what seems a paradox between predestination and man's free choice is conflated again between the purpose of God in creating man and saving mankind.

Predestination has absolutely nothing to do with creating, making, assigning, ordaining, anyone to believe. Believers are not predestined to be believers.

I think it was Cardcaptor who made the statement that it deals with the destiny of man. That God created man in His own Image so that man could be molded into His Likness. In Rom 8:28-30 the people who are predestined are those that love God, are called according to His purpose. His purpose is what? That they be conformed to the Image of His Son.

The only other time "predestined" is used in in Eph 1:6 where is clearly says God chose us IN Christ. It does not say He chose us to be IN Christ, but chose us IN Christ, that is we are already believers and because we are, we were predestined to be made into His likness. Predestined to be adopted as sons. Vs 6 explains your supposed paradox. He, God, made us accepted in the Beloved, (Christ). Mankind was redeemed, reconciled, justified, made acceptable through Christ.

Now, does man have a choice in his redemption, his reconcilment to God, his justification before God. No. There is nothing is scripture that says man played even the slightest role in his own redemption. It is the sole reason for Christ to come because man cannot save himself.

What is man being saved from? He is being saved from the fall. From the judgment of death through Adam. Romans 1-11 is not addressing believers directly. Paul is in a hypothetical argument with the Judiazers who thought that they, the Jews, were going to be saved just because they were Jews, by physical or national origin. Paul says clearly no, and goes through several chapters, 9-11 to show that God had planned all along that Christ would be the redeemer and that He would save all of mankind. God chose a man, to become the beginning of a nation, a favored nation, the Jews, but being a Jew did not guarnatee salvation. Paul then in these same chapters explains that one is actually saved by faith as was Abraham. It is the Spiritual Isreal who is being saved by faith, not anything to do with physical or nationality. The summation of this is that God saved or showed mercy to all, Rom 11:32. Already back in Rom 5:18-19 Paul makes this same statement, but the aguement with his questioners continues. Paul restates it in I Cor 15:20-22 and in II Cor 5:18-20 as well as many other places.

What has man been saved for? For union and communion. It is the purpose of why we were created, to be freely in union with Him. We were specifically created in His Image which among other things, means we are free. Christ restored that ability to all men because He gave life to mankind. He is the Life of the World, He is the Savior of the world. He came to save sinners, to call man to repentance. He does so, and all men freely make a choice. There is nothing in scripture that precludes man being free to make that choice of either rejecting Christ, or believing in Him and remaining IN Him.

This calling to union is the offer of the salvation of our souls. We are either choosing heaven or hell.

We are not choosing life and death that is physical life and death. That is what Christ gave to all of mankind. But we are choosing spiritual life or death. Eternal life with Christ or eternal life apart from Christ. All of mankind shall be raised in the last day to face judgement. What did each do with that offer of union and communion.

This is why God desires all men to come to the Knowledge of Him. He cannot force anyone to believe, He cannot compel any to believe. Why? Because He specifically created man free, to make that choice. To freely love back. Nothing will stop God from loving His creatures. He loved them while they were dead. He made them alive so they could choose again, union with Him for an eternity. Hell does not stop God from loving those who dispise Him, it merely confirms their own choice of freely rejecting Him. God gives to each his own desires. Heaven or hell.

[DjZed]

Ok everyone, as was said in the other posts. This is a round and round discussion for everyone here. I dont know how long you each have been discussing this over the years. It is a prominate division amongst believers and it will always come up at some point in every believers life. Some will gravitate more then others on the matters at hand. This is not wrong. Nor should anyone thwart people in the church from expressing where they are at. it shows a part of who they are.It is a division, it is not a seeming division, it simply is. each one of us intrprets these diff. it is not merely because of the individual passages we quote. its because of the system of theoligy we come from. One example of this is the church and isreal. how we view them is part of how we intrpt each scripture mentioned. jews, gentiles, believers, unbelievers, choice, predestination, spiritual isreal, he who is a jew is one inwardly. And we do that because of how we might see gods unveiling himself to man. Example a dispensationilst says that the key to properly intrpt the whole of the scripture is through the eyes of dispensations. a covenantalist says that that the key to properly intrp the whole of scripture is through the eyes of covenants. New covenentalists say that the key to properly intrp the whole of scripture through the eyes of the new covenant. Many call these presuppositions. That is 1st we have the idea and then we read it into scripture. Though none of us would say we read into the scripture as we sit right now. If we look back at our lives we will see better how our ideas were formed. we can also see where we use to hold to such and such but now we hold to this and that. and how we have reached this point. The views in the sytems of theoligy mentioned see things gravely different. To the point of sinful division within the church. Now couple any other systems with those. Examples, put arminianism with dispensationalism. put covenentalists with calvinism, put dispensationalism with pre-mill pre- rapt., put covenentalism with post millenialism. All of these different combinations will produce a differnt view than the other. Those are just examples, i'm not saying that each one is coupled, just the idea of coupling Different systems.

Does this mean we should stop discussing it? I dont think thats poss. We certainly don't want to say hey it's my way or the highway. Thats denominationalism. You agree with there systematic theoligy or you can't function in the body of christ properly. That is a hinderence of the use of ones gifts, and custom calls it church. Now because of my views on the church i know there is no hinderence for any believer to serve where is gifted. Denominations cant hinder that. Is fellowship about understanding doctrines. Part of it is and noone should have to feel that where they are at in thier theoligy is looked down on in a personal way. People might get the wrong idea with statements like. Beating a dead horse, have the shirt etc. I dont get the wrong idea, i'm not offended. i dont care what camp your in. I like the discussions. but some will be offended, and we dont want to offend someone because of negative comments made.

Now ultimatly i say all this because if we want to concern ouselves with doctrines in this setting, we are going to discuss this over and over. It will not dissapear. There are many doctrines i dont agree with other than this discussion. but i dont enter those because thats not where i'm at. If i were into escat. right now i would be in discusions about my views on esct. Not to say i dont study esc. i just dont participate in those discussions. i might someday. And would like the option if i do, Not have it shut down because its repetitive. And others have been there longer than me.

the only way to not divide over this is intentional on our individual part.

Otherwise you would say, move on down the road its better for you down there.

Which is like saying, we cant use your gifts here, or rather god cant use you here.

So please allow the conversations to go as the do. When someone is done, they will move on.

We all partake in these discussions together, and there are agendas as to why. Either we are looking into the subject because it is a new idea to us and we want to know more, or we are debating a subject, or we are trying to change someones mind about a subject. regardless, we are here. For the sake of those hearing a debate over something the opposing side should have a clear view of what it is the other believes. Some comments lead me to believe there is not a clearity of the others view. Both sides should be at least able to somewhat understand where the other comes from and present it in thier argument. as clearly a poss. Here in this discussion everybody is tryng to. it seems in all the discussions that noone has a clear understanding of what the other says. Doesnt meen you have to agree at all. it means you understand the perspective. Some have said that you are elected and some say you have a choice.

The points ao calvinism and arminian thoughts are contradictive to one another. They always will be. They were in the begining of the debate when calvin first responded to the five subjects he disagreed with on arminiuses teachings. And they will continue till the end.

Lets continue if thats what people want to do. In love.

Danny