OneLight Posted January 3, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 3, 2008 I will give my answer to question 2 and 3. Question #2 We are told in 2 Peter 3:10 that upon the Lords return all that we know will be burned up.....If this is the case, what "human" life could possibly be left to "live and reign over with Christ for a thousand years." as we are told in Revelation 20:4? And if it is "translated" saints that are being reigned over, there certainly is no "birthing" of a new race since we will not be performing the act of procreation in our new bodies? If we look back at revelation 19:11-21, in verse 18, when it is mentioned "all people", I see this as being those who are at the battle itself. Going on to verse 21, we read "and the rest", meaning those of the armies. I do not see these verses as meaning every living soul on the planet. That in mind, we can then see that, in verse 20:4, those who are reigning with Christ will be reigning over those who were not in the battle. I see that those who are still alive as being able to have kids, for the number of those who come to the second battle with Satan, after he is released for a season, number as the sands of the sea. That number is great. I also see that the earth will keep it's form until the time of the Great White Throne Judgment, as in 20:11, where we are told that heaven and earth will flee. This meaning, that the human life will not be totally destroyed until that time. In short, I see the world staying as it is until right before the Great White Throne Judgment, but this is a view of one that has just started studying Revelations in depth. OneLight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted January 4, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 I believe that I got this thread off in the wrong direction by adding to this original question. So I will re-start it, and bump it, so that the Massorites question at hand may be addressed... If when we die we go straight to heaven, and when Jesus ascended He took all who were in Paradise with Him to heaven including Moses and all of the other old testament saints. Which means that paradise is now empty and no one else who dies in Christ will be going there from now on. Why as it says in Revelation 20:12 does the Book of Life need to be opened at the Great White Throne Judgment? I mean if every one who is supposed to go to heaven, including the old testament saints like Moses are already in heaven there is no need to open the Book of Life. Because everyone's name who is written in it has already been judged worthy to go to heaven. There is no need to judge those who have already been judged so the Book of life being opened at the Great White Judgment is useless. Unless of course there are names written in there of people who are in need of Judgment and if there are names written in the Book Of Life who have not been judged who could they be? in Christ, Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim7 Posted January 4, 2008 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 635 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/07/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted January 4, 2008 Blessings to all and to you Brother Christian in your pursuit of truth, These are difficult questions, especially with the myriad of false concepts being peddled about the 'end times' . Heart of the question seems to be this: I mean if every one who is supposed to go to heaven, including the old testament saints like Moses are already in heaven there is no need to open the Book of Life. Because everyone's name who is written in it has already been judged worthy to go to heaven. There is no need to judge those who have already been judged so the Book of life being opened at the Great White Judgment is useless. Unless of course there are names written in there of people who are in need of Judgment and if there are names written in the Book Of Life who have not been judged who could they be? The way I see it is that all who exercise faith in Christ at any time are entered into the 'book of life', for they have passed from death to life by reason of that faith, no works required to be entered in the book. The problem arises in that names can be blotted out of the 'book of life' for different reasons. Thus in the 'white throne judgment', there will be those who at one time were in the 'book of life', yet have been blotted out. Thus the book is opened along with the other books, to show why certain names were blotted out and to determine the punishment. Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. The works are judged to determine the quality of the faith, whether it was 'Living Faith' or 'Dead Faith'. If we have and retain 'Living Faith', then the works will demonstrate that and we will pass the judgment, our sins already having gone beforehand into judgment, prior to the 'White throne judgment'. Notice that at this judgment, only the dead are judged, who would be those who are lost, for at the coming of Christ, the righteous dead were raised and those who were alive were translated. The rest were destroyed. Thus this judgment is for the lost and the tares who professed faith in Christ, but that faith turned out to be a 'spurious faith', a 'dead faith', a 'loveless faith'. Remember the group who did all those wonderful works in the Name of the Lord, and He said to them, 'depart from me you workers of iniquity'. At some point in time, they put their faith in Jesus, and worked for Him, they thought, but their works were in vain and they were judged 'cumberers of the ground', tares amongst the wheat and are judged by their works, whether they were wrought in Jesus, or merely of their own devising. Thus their faith proved to be a 'dead, loveless faith', and they are bundled with the unbelievers. There is a 'dead faith' that has works, but it is not the faith that works by love, but by duty, pride or hope of reward. The only faith that endures ultimately to Salvation is the 'faith that works by love', for the love of God is shed abroad in the heart of the believer and flows out of him in rivers of love, obedience and good works. God bless, your brother in Christ, Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patricia1 Posted January 4, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,858 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/23/1957 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Is this not the book that names can be blotted out? Are we discussing the Judgement of God in regards to Christians or nonchristians? My belief: I am not saying I am correct. But I considered since Jesus died for my sins, and God looks at me through the 'screen' Of Jesus I am alredy Judged worthy. I do believe that I will be held accountable for not hiding my light in a bushel, and the works I allowed Jesus to do through me.( Did I allow Him../ Did i not allow Him? Did I take Glory for myself? did I work out my Salvation with fear and trembling?) Time is a definite finite bondage we forget that it is not up there. Even the music has no time concept. I also believe we will get rewarded as well so This may not be a judgement as one sees it here. The rewards are individual. I see this along with 1cor 11:31, 32 1cor 3:11-13 but... I also lean here with the judgement of eternal punishment after the millenium of those who rejected Christ and His words towards the millenium end who are still alive which is so hard for me to believe that this will happen during the reign of christ and The saints, Kitty..it is with great joy that I tell you there is no closing of eyes. I would love to see the demons who had been sent to torment me, lead me astray thrown down. That is reward enough for me!!!patricia1 great post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolts Posted January 5, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 963 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/27/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/10/1963 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Hello Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraught Posted January 5, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,741 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 28 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/30/1959 Share Posted January 5, 2008 all the books are opened, including the book of life and not just the book of life. what are the other books? why is the book of life also opened? i do not know and cannot recall any writings on this. 'things that make you go hhhmmmmm!' surely there is allusion to this somewhere in the old testament. there always is. i hope that whoever can recall will share their insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 5, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 5, 2008 all the books are opened, including the book of life and not just the book of life. what are the other books? why is the book of life also opened? i do not know and cannot recall any writings on this. 'things that make you go hhhmmmmm!' surely there is allusion to this somewhere in the old testament. there always is. i hope that whoever can recall will share their insight. I have not look for scripture about your question, but I do think that if we are to stand accountable for every idle word, then there has to be someone (angles?) taking notes on what we say. That would also go for what we do, works, just to name two ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted January 5, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Hello Christian Hello my Dear Sister !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted January 5, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 all the books are opened, including the book of life and not just the book of life. what are the other books? why is the book of life also opened? i do not know and cannot recall any writings on this. 'things that make you go hhhmmmmm!' surely there is allusion to this somewhere in the old testament. there always is. i hope that whoever can recall will share their insight. The earliest reference to any "book", other than the mention of "the book of the generations of Adam" mentioned in Genesis 5:1, begins with the "Book of the Covenenant" written of in Exodus 24:4-7. But... The first reference to a book which God possesses seems to be in Exodus 32:32-33 Here Moses is pleading to Jehovah on behalf of the Jews (notice the bolds below) Exodus 32:32-33 (32) Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin - ; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. (33) And Jehovah said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. I'm not sure if we are made privy to the actual "description" of the other books, other than the "Book of Life"? in Christ, Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted January 5, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Brother Massorite raised this question in another thread, and I felt that it merited a discussion of it's own. I've added to his question with a few of my own on the subject. Blessings to all who might like to contribute to the topic. in Christ, His faithful servant, Christian Here is a question that will cause one to think. " If when we die we go straight to heaven and when Jesus ascended He took all who were in Paradise with Him to heaven including Moses and all of the other old testament saints. Which means that paradise is now empty and no one else who dies in Christ will be going there from now on. Why as it says in Revelation 20:12 does the Book of Life need to be opened at the Great White Throne Judgment? I mean if every one who is supposed to go to heaven, including the old testament saints like Moses are already in heaven there is no need to open the Book of Life. Because everyone's name who is written in it has already been judged worthy to go to heaven. There is no need to judge those who have already been judged so the Book of life being opened at the Great White Judgment is useless. Unless of course there are names written in there of people who are in need of Judgment and if there are names written in the Book Of Life who have not been judged who could they be? (1) Do you believe John 5:28-29 and Revelation 20:12-13 are speaking of the same moment? John 5:28-29 (28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Revelation 20:12-15 (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (2) We are told in 2 Peter 3:10 that upon the Lords return all that we know will be burned up..... 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. ....as Matthew 24:29, and Mark 13:25 also imply Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. If this is the case, what "human" life could possibly be left to "live and reign over with Christ for a thousand years." as we are told in Revelation 20:4? And if it is "translated" saints that are being reigned over, there certainly is no "birthing" of a new race since we will not be performing the act of procreation in our new bodies? (3) Beyond the "first" resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20:4, we are never told of anyone described as "alive" afterwards, only all the remaining "dead" assembled before the Judgement throne in Revelation 20:12-15 (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. References to "nations", Gog and Magog, and "number is as the sand of the sea", still are odd, and questionable as to their "human" nature, given the fiery, element melting re-entry of our Lord into this world? Hmmmmmmmmm I will say that there is a lot that I could go into this, but will not. The biggest problem is that the doctrine of the Rapture is incorrect and will always create these kinds of questions. I for one do not believe the rapture in the way that it is taught. I have know about the "Rapture" doctrine since 1983 and didn't even believe it then. I could lay down the way that the scriptures say it, but it will cause a great argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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