Out of Order?

[tsth]

(God, very clearly intended for a created order. Especially within the family and culture.) See Ephesians

Isaiah 3:12 Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. O my people, your guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path. 13 The Lord takes his place in court; he rises to judge the people. 14 The Lord enters into judgment against the elders and leaders of his people:

(The Teachings On Godly Order)

Ephesians 5:24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

(Goes directly into)

Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 "Honor your father and mother"--which is the first commandment with a promise-- 3 "that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth." 4 Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.

(The issue of slaves, could be viewed as an employee's/worker's relation to an employer)

5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free. 9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

Take a look closely at Isaiah 3. It describes the rebellion and disorder. It also clearly focuses on the different attitudes within gender:

Isaiah 3:

1 See now, the Lord, the Lord Almighty, is about to take from Jerusalem and Judah both supply and support: all supplies of food and all supplies of water, 2 the hero and warrior, the judge and prophet, the soothsayer and elder, 3 the captain of fifty and man of rank, the counselor, skilled craftsman and clever enchanter. 4 I will make boys their officials; mere children will govern them. 5 People will oppress each other-- man against man, neighbor against neighbor. The young will rise up against the old, the base against the honorable. 6 A man will seize one of his brothers at his father's home, and say, "You have a cloak, you be our leader; take charge of this heap of ruins!" 7 But in that day he will cry out, "I have no remedy. I have no food or clothing in my house; do not make me the leader of the people." 8 Jerusalem staggers, Judah is falling; their words and deeds are against the Lord, defying his glorious presence.

9 The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves. 10 Tell the righteous it will be well with them, for they will enjoy the fruit of their deeds. 11 Woe to the wicked! Disaster is upon them! They will be paid back for what their hands have done. 12 Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. O my people, your guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path. 13 The Lord takes his place in court; he rises to judge the people. 14 The Lord enters into judgment against the elders and leaders of his people: "It is you who have ruined my vineyard; the plunder from the poor is in your houses. 15 What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the poor?" declares the Lord, the Lord Almighty.

16 The Lord says, "The women of Zion are haughty, walking along with outstretched necks, flirting with their eyes, tripping along with mincing steps, with ornaments jingling on their ankles. 17 Therefore the Lord will bring sores on the heads of the women of Zion; the Lord will make their scalps bald." 18 In that day the Lord will snatch away their finery: the bangles and headbands and crescent necklaces, 19 the earrings and bracelets and veils, 20 the headdresses and ankle chains and sashes, the perfume bottles and charms, 21 the signet rings and nose rings, 22 the fine robes and the capes and cloaks, the purses 23 and mirrors, and the linen garments and tiaras and shawls. 24 Instead of fragrance there will be a stench; instead of a sash, a rope; instead of well-dressed hair, baldness; instead of fine clothing, sackcloth; instead of beauty, branding. 25 Your men will fall by the sword, your warriors in battle. 26 The gates of Zion will lament and mourn; destitute, she will sit on the ground.

(Why such detailed description of the state of the women?) Notice what happened to the men, in the last verse?

And then, after all of that, there seems to be a change of attitude. The haughtiness has diminished and desperation seems to set in?

Isaiah 4:1 In that day seven women will take hold of one man and say, "We will eat our own food and provide our own clothes; only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace!"

(It's an interesting study on pride and positions)

In His Love,

Suzanne

Edited January 24, 2008 by tsth

[jackie d]

so what are you trying to say?

[terter]

These are end time scriptures.

Isa 4:1 is one scripture some use to support their perspective of tribulation (pre-trib, mid-trib, etc.) b/c the number of men will be so reduced that are available for marriage - young men - that women will assure them that they will provide for themselves that all they want from them is their name.

[Guest Biblicist]

terter, We are in the end times. We have been since Jesus Christ ascended into Heaven.

This is a great study tsth!

[tsth]

The chapter is describing a nation that is about to "go down/fall". And all the disorder that is within it. From homosexuality and the pride of it, to the disorder of the natural creation order of mankind. It is "a process of humbling". It is what takes place within a people that won't snap out of it, and start listening to God.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tah]

from my view point we are long overdue..

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,

2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!

We don't talk much about rebellion but rebellion is probably my biggest battle..

I will do what I want to do when I want to do it and to blazes with anyone else's opinion that tries to tell me other wise..

Talk about OUT OF ORDER!!

We have to fight to be under the authority of God...and it is not an easy battle for us..

Ok..perhaps you are a better Christian than I...rephrase..Me...

Gives this light...

5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Whatever order God has placed me in is hard for me to submit to...

and I have scars to prove it...

I sure do thank God for His words of encouragement ...

we are warned....

Jud 1:17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:18 They said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions."

Jud 1:19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.

Jud 1:20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up in your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit;

Jud 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.

Jud 1:22 And have mercy on those who doubt;

Jud 1:23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.

Jud 1:24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

Jud 1:25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

didn't mean to derail your op...just speaking my thoughts...

[tsth]

Dear tah,

You didn't derail.......in fact, rebellion is a very prominent issue with regard to the topic. Did you know that historically, homosexuality is the last state of rebellion for a nation about to be brought down? It's a mark of the last stages of rebellion, along with disorder. But, if you think about it, homosexuality, is right in line with disorder in regard to "gender" issues. And if you note, our nation's kids are showing signs of having trouble with gender issues/identity. That's what happens when roles of men/women/husband's/wives get out of sync. It has a profound effect on our kids, and they begin to work in confusion as well.

I admire that you do not shrink back from these issues. And frankly, you don't sound in rebellion at all, but one who is "willingly" receiving what God's Word is saying!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[jackie d]

This is another one of those "male-supremacy/women-shut-up, get-the-paper, and-do-the-laundry" threads, which is easily dispelled by quoting the book of JUDGES, and quite frankly I'm sick of it as I'm sure the Lord is.

Judges 4:4

And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

?! You mean a WOMAN did the same job as men?!

Yes. read your Bible.

Judges 4:9

And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

I thought that was what this thread was about, one can hope though can't they?

[Guest Biblicist]

This is another one of those "male-supremacy/women-shut-up, get-the-paper, and-do-the-laundry" threads, which is easily dispelled by quoting the book of JUDGES, and quite frankly I'm sick of it as I'm sure the Lord is.

Judges 4:4

And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

?! You mean a WOMAN did the same job as men?!

Yes. read your Bible.

Judges 4:9

And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

I don't believe the LORD ever gets tired of people learning from His Word and speaking the TRUTH.

WOW, no one said that women couldn't do the same job as men. Although, I would surmise that if women stayed at home with their children there would not be the problems we have with children and there would not be so many men out of work, unable to support their families. But that's for another thread. Proverbs 31:10-31

Why do you have such a problem with the word submission? Or women having specific roles? Order, is the topic of this thread. God's Holy order. Sad to say it, but most women do not want to submit to God's Holy Order, part of the "curse" I guess.

If you take Judges 4:9 into CONTEXT... You will see that Deborah's order from God was for them to go, but the man insisted she go with them. What is God really trying to teach us here? Is this a lesson for women? Or is it a rebuke for men?

Judges 4

6 She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, "The LORD, the God of Israel, commands you: 'Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead the way to Mount Tabor.

7 I will lure Sisera, the commander of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.' "

8 Barak said to her, "If you go with me, I will go; but if you don't go with me, I won't go."