Out of Order?

[Vickilynn]

Take a look closely at Isaiah 3. It describes the rebellion and disorder. It also clearly focuses on the different attitudes within gender:

Isaiah 3:

1 See now, the Lord, the Lord Almighty, is about to take from Jerusalem and Judah both supply and support: all supplies of food and all supplies of water, 2 the hero and warrior, the judge and prophet, the soothsayer and elder, 3 the captain of fifty and man of rank, the counselor, skilled craftsman and clever enchanter. 4 I will make boys their officials; mere children will govern them. 5 People will oppress each other-- man against man, neighbor against neighbor. The young will rise up against the old, the base against the honorable. 6 A man will seize one of his brothers at his father's home, and say, "You have a cloak, you be our leader; take charge of this heap of ruins!" 7 But in that day he will cry out, "I have no remedy. I have no food or clothing in my house; do not make me the leader of the people." 8 Jerusalem staggers, Judah is falling; their words and deeds are against the Lord, defying his glorious presence.

9 The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves. 10 Tell the righteous it will be well with them, for they will enjoy the fruit of their deeds. 11 Woe to the wicked! Disaster is upon them! They will be paid back for what their hands have done. 12 Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. O my people, your guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path. 13 The Lord takes his place in court; he rises to judge the people. 14 The Lord enters into judgment against the elders and leaders of his people: "It is you who have ruined my vineyard; the plunder from the poor is in your houses. 15 What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the poor?" declares the Lord, the Lord Almighty.

16 The Lord says, "The women of Zion are haughty, walking along with outstretched necks, flirting with their eyes, tripping along with mincing steps, with ornaments jingling on their ankles. 17 Therefore the Lord will bring sores on the heads of the women of Zion; the Lord will make their scalps bald." 18 In that day the Lord will snatch away their finery: the bangles and headbands and crescent necklaces, 19 the earrings and bracelets and veils, 20 the headdresses and ankle chains and sashes, the perfume bottles and charms, 21 the signet rings and nose rings, 22 the fine robes and the capes and cloaks, the purses 23 and mirrors, and the linen garments and tiaras and shawls. 24 Instead of fragrance there will be a stench; instead of a sash, a rope; instead of well-dressed hair, baldness; instead of fine clothing, sackcloth; instead of beauty, branding. 25 Your men will fall by the sword, your warriors in battle. 26 The gates of Zion will lament and mourn; destitute, she will sit on the ground.

(Why such detailed description of the state of the women?) Notice what happened to the men, in the last verse?

And then, after all of that, there seems to be a change of attitude. The haughtiness has diminished and desperation seems to set in?

Isaiah 4:1 In that day seven women will take hold of one man and say, "We will eat our own food and provide our own clothes; only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace!"

(It's an interesting study on pride and positions)

In His Love,

Suzanne

Shalom,

This important study got sidetracked for awhile, but it's SO good and we really need to address it.

Why do people think they can live in any other way than G-d's order? It is the sin of rebellion. No one is immune to its temptation. Satan gave in to it, but we don't have to. We can crucify the flesh and walk in G-d's ways. In His order.

[grace222]

Hello,

just stepped into this thread and agree with what you are talking about!

I believe all mothers should stay at home(where possible) to mind their children.

Sadly, God has not blessed me with any children, but I would have loved to be a SAHM and take care of my precious ones.

I know of women who have returned to work and have the audacity to have their own mothers mind their children.

Their mothers have already done the hard part of raising children.

It just seems so unfair!

I know of one lady that takes care of two grandsons - drives an hour to their home to take care of them ALL day and then has to take care of her elderly ill father.

Just totally unfair!

You can't have your cake and eat it too!

If God has blessed you with children, then He has given you a very important and special job to do!

He wants you to put THEIR needs first before your own.

So, I totally agree!

God bless all!

[tsth]

Thank you vickilynn, for keeping the topic on track!

I would like to give a bit of creedence though to what jackie d stated, because in all fairness, she did have a valid point about the men, as well. We would have to agree that the out of orderness (I know, that's not a word. ), but it DOES include the men, as well. I'm not sure where the blame should be placed first, if at all, with regard to the disorder, so I'll just stick with saying "the enemy" did it, and leave it at that. But, I'm sure we can all agree that with regard to the make up of the original family order, instituted by God, that it's gone out the window. The traditional family and the defined roles have broken down in this day, for the most part. I would attempt to call us to examine what was stated in the very first place with regard to "Adam and Eve" mentioned in Genesis:

Genesis 3:16

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

3:17

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

harkened:

to hear, listen to, obey

God very clearly intended for Adam to put God BEFORE Eve, and HE also clearly indicates that He intends for Eve to be in submission to Adam. I certainly can understand that for protection and strength within any body, there must be a defined order. You cannot have 2 entities trying to be head at the same time, as there can only be 1 head.

1 Cor. 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now as far as what jackie d mentioned in regard to certain men, she is right. Something went awry, with regard to the men losing focus of what their roles are. Who did that? I'm afraid I'd have to say that the women did it..........by stating that they no longer wanted a man over them. In the process, we lost our covering, our protection, and our children lost their caretakers. I'm not sure, but I'd say that the kids are paying the bigger price. Look around, at the cost that women are now paying. We are more vulerable now, (in essence what Jackie is noticing, with regard to the men not being there to take responsibility anymore) and with regard to crimes against us, blatant exploitations such as porn pawns, abused spouses, general attacks, look at the women being snatched off the streets these days, etc.

So, now we've got total disorder. And men are just as much to blame. Look at this command. It seems to be a bit out of nowhere, but if you look at the state of disorder that I'm speaking of today, it makes perfect sense in regard to a warning:

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. 6 And he will turn The hearts of the fathers to the children, And the hearts of the children to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse."

It's even more in focus with the repetition of it in the NT....this time detailing a bit more by focusing upon rebellion/disobedience.

Luke 1:17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, 'to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

If we just took a little time to think about what the Scriptures say, it would do us great good.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

You are right about one thing though, real women should get to stay home and raise their children. Especially those who have sons so they can be raised to be real men who take proper care of the woman they decide to marry and the children they rear. Ones that haven't been so coddled by their mother that they think that is what a woman was placed on the earth to do-bow and scrape.

Dear Jackie d,

You might be surprised to find that I agree with you, (minus the bitterness). I do think your point is valid. I want to respond in more depth in regard to it, but I'll have to get back in the morning when I have more time.

In His Love,

Suzanne

I think if we had it all to do over again, we'd prefer the men of honor and trust, who were willing to stand up and defend the honor of women. And women would once again feel that they were honorable, rather than demeaned and not valued enough to the point that they don't value their virginity and virtue anymore. Young women don't feel honorable anymore, because they don't have the concept from daddies, that a young woman is very valuable and precious. Young women are moving in with men that are not willing to take them as wives, and daddies are saying absolutely NOTHING about it? Why? Young girls and young men, need new eyes. And they need biblical training to be able to have that salve so that they can see anew. Men need to know that they are respected and valued again, and that they have a duty to protect and defend. Young men have lost that inner integrity, because they no longer have a role that is redeeming to them. Men were created by God to be the head of their families. If they lose the very roles that make them feel respected, then they get it somewhere else, such as in their work roles, their amassed possessions, or such as a gang member/leader....it's the inbred role of some sort of leadership, respect, even if it's the wrong kind.

Respect is so very important to a man, and love and care is so important to a woman:

Ephesians 5:33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church--

The Word of God refers to the wife as "the weaker vessel", and that the husband is to honor her in that.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[jackie d]

And you know I am truly sorry to everyone for my attitude today, especially you Vickilynn...regardless of how I feel a person is talking to me or looking down on me, I should never return it. Jesus doesn't like that kinda stuff

The Word of God refers to the wife as "the weaker vessel", and that the husband is to honor her in that.

How I would love to see this for everyone. I have to say though that the family unit was falling apart long before women's lib started. We can look through all of history and see it. And I believe the woman's movement came about because of the oppression that women have been under for centuries. It doesn't excuse but it explains.

For many who have lived a sheltered life and have had the luxury of a good husband or wife who honors their spouse and their role in the marriage it is probably pretty easy to look at the wonderful and very powerful description of the woman in Proverbs 31 and think that is the way it just should be and there should be no questions asked. But the reality is, it isn't. Suzanne you are so right, it has all fallen apart. However, to say that it is because the women moved in a different direction in hopes of a better life is not accurate, for thousands of years men have used their physical power over women as means of control and abuse and they finally had enough. That was the motivator for the women's liberation movement. And yet the sins of the broken family units lies at the feet of both and the responsibility should be taken by both. Beginning as far back as as our ancestors began.

I do get bitter about these topics when I see and hear the closed minds of people with expectations that every person can live in the box they have made for themselves or at least try to make other people think they have. It's just plain wrong. And it's not about me, regardless of the attitude you saw with me today I am a very compassionate person who has seen many abused and forgotten women and children, I get bitter for them.

I tell you right now I myself would willingly let a good and godly man take the role of leadership over me. And I know that a good and godly man wouldn't use God as a tool to oppress or stifle the person that I am. I have yet to find one. Not saying they aren't there but in all of the years I have lived I have only met one and he married my youngest sister. That's it 41 yrs and only one.

So, I am forced to be my husband and my wife with Christ as my head. I do what I can to handle everything to the best of my ability and hope that I don't fail the Lord or my child in the process. I can't do more and I resent people who know nothing about me or my life or the kind of person I am pushing something on me that doesn't work for me and then calling me wrong and questioning my faith because I don't live by their standards. (I am NOT addressing you about this Suzanne)

I didn't post a scripture to this because this is a topic that isn't cut and dried. It is a topic that deals with individuals and is case by case. There are some things that we can use scripture on for everybody and every other situation this isn't one....unless of course we want to talk about the role Paul tells the church to participate in regarding caring for the widows and the orphans...but that is another topic altogether. Or is it?

And on that note, I will say goodnight. Thanks everyone for the very interesting day and I pray the Lord keeps you all....

Love and blessings

[Guest Biblicist]

So how are we, as wives, since we are answerable to God for our actions, react to a husband who does not follow God's Word, and holy order?

Does God's Created Order apply in every marriage, not just ones where both are Christians, striving to follow God's Word?

[tsth]

Dear jackie d,

I would only say that it is preventable, when women begin to value the things of God more than they do, and marry men who do no less.

For those who have ended up as believers in the process of marriage, they need to practice their walk in full view, with graciousness, humility AND love, covered with massive faith and prayer, to let her husband know that she truly believes and obeys her God. And He calls her to love and honor her husband, so that he may be won over.

Her God also reveals that He will be watching to see how her husband treats her, and HE will be answering to her God.

1 Peter 3:1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4 Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. 7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

(That is where faith and practice come in.)

Do we really believe what God says?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest Biblicist]

We can not force our husbands to obey God's commands, be the head of the household and:

Ephesians 5

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church

[tsth]

Dear Biblicist,

You are right, we cannot. But, God has much to say in regard to it. That is why the command in 1 Peter 3, above is so important. It's even more vital that we have great faith and believe what God says in regard to it.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

These are excellent points. That scripture you posted from Isaiah 3:12 came to my mind some time back with regard to a possible Hillary Presidency. Could it be a sign that America is on a path to destruction? If she wins, I think it very well could be the case.

Yes, I've wondered that as well, Butero.

In His Love,

Suzanne