Just War

[Willow99]

There's other such regimes that exist. That wasn't suppose to be the point of the war according to our President. He lied to us and invaded and completely ripped a country apart on false pretenses. He demanded the impossible from them.

Certainly there are, and the hypocrisy of using this as justification for the invasion sticks in my craw as well. However, it can't be denied that removing Saddam from power and bringing him to justice for his crimes was a good thing. It's sad that the American-devised plan to steal the oil fields and contain Iran/Syria has resulted in so much bloodshed, and sad that Her Majesty's Government was too spineless to refuse to get involved, but nothing's served by lamenting these facts.

Personally I'd rather have seen the British Army, alone, drag Saddam out of Baghdad and hand him over to The Hague for trials on charges of crimes against humanity, and then systematically clean out every corrupt, bloody regime in the Commonwealth one by one, but that's not terribly likely to happen after the foul-up Iraq has become. Besides, people would cry about "British imperialism" if we did.

Sorry, I digress...

...and I suppose it doesn't do any good to re hash all this stuff. I for one lost the respect I had through all this. I can't really see much difference in the players involved except some are better at dressing up their words and just a little more able to hide facts. Just a little more sneaky.

As bad as Saddam was he didn't deserve the inhumane way he was treated after his capture. Any one wanting to know those facts can type his name in a search engine.

Willow99

[redwing]

There's other such regimes that exist. That wasn't suppose to be the point of the war according to our President. He lied to us and invaded and completely ripped a country apart on false pretenses. He demanded the impossible from them.

Certainly there are, and the hypocrisy of using this as justification for the invasion sticks in my craw as well. However, it can't be denied that removing Saddam from power and bringing him to justice for his crimes was a good thing. It's sad that the American-devised plan to steal the oil fields and contain Iran/Syria has resulted in so much bloodshed, and sad that Her Majesty's Government was too spineless to refuse to get involved, but nothing's served by lamenting these facts.

Personally I'd rather have seen the British Army, alone, drag Saddam out of Baghdad and hand him over to The Hague for trials on charges of crimes against humanity, and then systematically clean out every corrupt, bloody regime in the Commonwealth one by one, but that's not terribly likely to happen after the foul-up Iraq has become. Besides, people would cry about "British imperialism" if we did.

Sorry, I digress...

...and I suppose it doesn't do any good to re hash all this stuff. I for one lost the respect I had through all this. I can't really see much difference in the players involved except some are better at dressing up their words and just a little more able to hide facts. Just a little more sneaky.

As bad as Saddam was he didn't deserve the inhumane way he was treated after his capture. Any one wanting to know those facts can type his name in a search engine.

Willow99

and your from kentucky. must be the east end of louisville.

[Willow99]

Willow, you said

What is being said here: Surely no one believes the above Scripture from

Deuteronomy is referring to present day America!

Why have you posted this? What is your purpose of doing so?

That is not your statement that I was addressing. I was addressing this statment:

There's much in the OT that's relevant today but God having a chosen people just isn't one of them.

Notice your statement did not qualify who was God's chosen people except to the extent that it was nobody. I don't believe that the US is God's chosen people in this day and age. His chosen people has been and always will be the Jews. God has chosen to bless America for His purpose; undoubtedly to stand with the Hebrews during the last days (IMHO). Hopefully you can now see my "purpose" for posting what I did.

It seemed to me that some people act and believe that they are God's chosen people today. I merely stated God has no chosen people today. So I guess we agree on that.

[Willow99]

There's other such regimes that exist. That wasn't suppose to be the point of the war according to our President. He lied to us and invaded and completely ripped a country apart on false pretenses. He demanded the impossible from them.

Certainly there are, and the hypocrisy of using this as justification for the invasion sticks in my craw as well. However, it can't be denied that removing Saddam from power and bringing him to justice for his crimes was a good thing. It's sad that the American-devised plan to steal the oil fields and contain Iran/Syria has resulted in so much bloodshed, and sad that Her Majesty's Government was too spineless to refuse to get involved, but nothing's served by lamenting these facts.

Personally I'd rather have seen the British Army, alone, drag Saddam out of Baghdad and hand him over to The Hague for trials on charges of crimes against humanity, and then systematically clean out every corrupt, bloody regime in the Commonwealth one by one, but that's not terribly likely to happen after the foul-up Iraq has become. Besides, people would cry about "British imperialism" if we did.

Sorry, I digress...

...and I suppose it doesn't do any good to re hash all this stuff. I for one lost the respect I had through all this. I can't really see much difference in the players involved except some are better at dressing up their words and just a little more able to hide facts. Just a little more sneaky.

As bad as Saddam was he didn't deserve the inhumane way he was treated after his capture. Any one wanting to know those facts can type his name in a search engine.

Willow99

and your from kentucky. must be the east end of louisville.

Hello there, redwing,

I rarely see anyone on the forums from KY either. I'm quite a distance from you. My brother and his family live in Georgetown and not so far from your location.

It's very nice to meet you!

Willow99

[Rick-Parker]

Willow, you said

What is being said here: Surely no one believes the above Scripture from

Deuteronomy is referring to present day America!

Why have you posted this? What is your purpose of doing so?

That is not your statement that I was addressing. I was addressing this statment:

There's much in the OT that's relevant today but God having a chosen people just isn't one of them.

Notice your statement did not qualify who was God's chosen people except to the extent that it was nobody. I don't believe that the US is God's chosen people in this day and age. His chosen people has been and always will be the Jews. God has chosen to bless America for His purpose; undoubtedly to stand with the Hebrews during the last days (IMHO). Hopefully you can now see my "purpose" for posting what I did.

It seemed to me that some people act and believe that they are God's chosen people today. I merely stated God has no chosen people today. So I guess we agree on that.

If you are maintaining that the Jews are not God's chosen, then we are not in agreement. The Bible clearly states that the Jews are God"s chosen ones.

[Guest]

The Bible clearly states that the Jews are God"s chosen ones

Hallelujah!

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call

Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:

Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?

Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:

But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.

Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.

Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.

And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Joel 2:15-32

Even So Come Quickly Lord Jesus Come Quickly

[Willow99]

Willow, you said

What is being said here: Surely no one believes the above Scripture from

Deuteronomy is referring to present day America!

Why have you posted this? What is your purpose of doing so?

That is not your statement that I was addressing. I was addressing this statment:

There's much in the OT that's relevant today but God having a chosen people just isn't one of them.

Notice your statement did not qualify who was God's chosen people except to the extent that it was nobody. I don't believe that the US is God's chosen people in this day and age. His chosen people has been and always will be the Jews. God has chosen to bless America for His purpose; undoubtedly to stand with the Hebrews during the last days (IMHO). Hopefully you can now see my "purpose" for posting what I did.

It seemed to me that some people act and believe that they are God's chosen people today. I merely stated God has no chosen people today. So I guess we agree on that.

If you are maintaining that the Jews are not God's chosen, then we are not in agreement. The Bible clearly states that the Jews are God"s chosen ones.

It's here in the posts that I acknowledge the Jews as God's chosen people.

Willow99

[Rick-Parker]

Willow, you said

What is being said here: Surely no one believes the above Scripture from

Deuteronomy is referring to present day America!

Why have you posted this? What is your purpose of doing so?

That is not your statement that I was addressing. I was addressing this statment:

There's much in the OT that's relevant today but God having a chosen people just isn't one of them.

Notice your statement did not qualify who was God's chosen people except to the extent that it was nobody. I don't believe that the US is God's chosen people in this day and age. His chosen people has been and always will be the Jews. God has chosen to bless America for His purpose; undoubtedly to stand with the Hebrews during the last days (IMHO). Hopefully you can now see my "purpose" for posting what I did.

It seemed to me that some people act and believe that they are God's chosen people today. I merely stated God has no chosen people today. So I guess we agree on that.

If you are maintaining that the Jews are not God's chosen, then we are not in agreement. The Bible clearly states that the Jews are God"s chosen ones.

It's here in the posts that I acknowledge the Jews as God's chosen people.

Willow99

Then we are in agreement, my friend.

Rick

[forrestkc]

Willow,

Do you not believe that the OT is applicable to today's society?

I also posted two passages from Proverbs about war. I will post them again for your convenience. Of course, if we handled disputes in a Biblical manner, it is likely there would be no more war.

Proverbs 24:6 for waging war you need guidance,

and for victory many advisers.

Proverbs 20:18 Make plans by seeking advice;

if you wage war, obtain guidance.

So being that in Old Testament wars, genocide was the norm, women and children were slaughtered, and virgin girls were taken and raped as spoils of war, do you believe that should be the model for warfare today?

Numbers 31:1-18

Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Take full vengeance for the sons of Israel on the Midianites; afterward you will be gathered to your people." Moses spoke to the people, saying, "Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the LORD'S vengeance on Midian. "A thousand from each tribe of all the tribes of Israel you shall send to the war." Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, who had come from service in the war. And Moses said to them, "Have you spared all the women? "Behold, these caused the sons of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, so the plague was among the congregation of the LORD. "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.

"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.

Its a different time today, we are told:

"If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."

-Romans 12:18

That means exactly what it says. We should strive to live at peace with one another. This is true with us as individuals, and with as as nations. War should always be the very last resort. Man is fallen, so of course there are times when war is absolutely unavoidable. World War II is an example of such a war. However, we should also realize that those kinds of wars are few and far between. Most wars are indeed avoidable and war typically begets more war. For example, every single war we have fought in the last 100 years, including World War II, the Korean War, the war in Vietnam, and the current war in Iraq all resulted from the aftermath of World War I, which by the way was an elective war.

For the first 300 years of Christianity, Christians practiced non-violence. Now it should be pointed out that there is a big difference between practicing non-violence and pacifism. True pacifism is doing nothing in the face of injustice. Non-violence is doing something, just not resorting to violence if at all possible. For example, Gandhi was not a pacifist. He simply practiced non-violence, and in doing so defeated the British Empire.

I think the Catholics probably have it best with their doctrine of Just War:

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

-the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

-all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

-there must be serious prospects of success;

-the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

[Rick-Parker]

So being that in Old Testament wars, genocide was the norm, women and children were slaughtered, and virgin girls were taken and raped as spoils of war, do you believe that should be the model for warfare today?

These very same outrages are happening even now on the African continent, the caribbean, and eastern Europe.