Do you have to be baptized to go to Heaven?

[Guest shiloh357]

Can one enter into heaven with sin?? So if you are saying that one does not have to be baptized in order to go to heaven, then how is their sin remitted. Sins are remitted when one is baptized, fully emersed in water with the name of Jesus applied. We are buried in baptism and our sins are washed away. The Devil believes and trembles...is he saved....no.

If you actually believe what you seem to be saying, that sin is remitted only after baptism, then Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient enough to save us. Is that what you are saying? You can't have it both ways. Either Christ's blood is enough and you don't need baptism to be saved, or Christ's blood plus something else brings salvation.

Rick, Baptism is the means by which Christ's Blood is applied to our lives....here's scripture to prove it:

In the OT, the sins of the people could not be cancelled out, or remitted, without a sacrifice/ offering...

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Which, as we know, typifies Christ offering Himself for our sins. What is the purpose of Christ's Blood?

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

That being said, how can we apply this Blood that remits sin to our lives on a pragmatic level?

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ( for what purpose?) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Baptism and Belief in Christ go hand in hand.....you can't have one without the other.

I believe the same point was made by guitarman, if I am reitterating, I apologize.

Praise Him

I am sorry, but this type of proof texting only highlights the weakness of your position. Anyone can grab a verse from here, a verse from there, and string them together like lights on a Christmas tree and make the Bible say whatevery they want. That is a very unreliable and highly subjective means of estabish a doctrine.

The major red flag of false doctrine is prooftexting. There are various major discussions of salvation in the Bible. Take two major treatese on salvation, namely Romans 10 and Ephesians 2. In neither case is baptism is ever mentioned as part of the equation where salvation is concerned. If baptism is necessary for salvation, it would be in every passage in the New Testament pertaining to salvation.

[Guest shiloh357]

Can one enter into heaven with sin?? So if you are saying that one does not have to be baptized in order to go to heaven, then how is their sin remitted. Sins are remitted when one is baptized, fully emersed in water with the name of Jesus applied. We are buried in baptism and our sins are washed away. The Devil believes and trembles...is he saved....no.

No, it is the blood of Jesus alone and His finished work on the cross alone that brings remission of sins. Our faith should be in Christ, not in baptism.

But isn't our faith in Christ also doing what he told us

Obedience to be baptized is an expression of faith, but it is not the means of procuring salvation. Water immersion is outward demonstration of the salvation already received.

[Guest shiloh357]

Your arguments are persuasive, but please fortify your rebuttal with scripture.

I use the same Scriptures that are being presented to prove that baptism is necessary for salvation. I simply apply proper hermeneutics to them.

Our LORD Jesus Christ (God) Baptizes In The Holy Ghost (God) And He Always Does The Will Of His Farther (God)

"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" Luke 3:16

The Gift Of God's Grace

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Even Saving Belief In The LORD Jesus Christ

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Who Draws Us With His Love

"The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." Jeremiah 31:3

Because We Are His Joy

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2

Saves Us

Why Would Any Believer Want To Splash Cold Water On The Blood That Redeems....

"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" Colossians 1:20-23

FresnoJoe: All of these scriptures are great, but when put in their proper perspective with other scripture, giving a complete picture of the plan of salvation. As was stated in an earlier post, we cannot just go to Ephesians or Romans and pull out a scripture and say " this is what salvation entails". These epistles were written to the Church, people who were already baptized and had the gifts of the Spirit in operation. They were not written to the secular world and therefore cannot be looked upon as the sole authoritative writing; the historical background of the early church must be used along with these for full understanding.

Praise Him

The Bible is the final arbiter on all matters of Christian faith and practice. I don't need the history of the church to define for me what Christianity is.

[bison.78]

Can one enter into heaven with sin?? So if you are saying that one does not have to be baptized in order to go to heaven, then how is their sin remitted. Sins are remitted when one is baptized, fully emersed in water with the name of Jesus applied. We are buried in baptism and our sins are washed away. The Devil believes and trembles...is he saved....no.

No, it is the blood of Jesus alone and His finished work on the cross alone that brings remission of sins. Our faith should be in Christ, not in baptism.

Shiloh, what is needed on our part for salvation to be imparted unto us? Is it, as you say, just faith alone?

If salvation were dependent on anything outside of grace through faith, salvation would not be available to all. What I mean is, if God said something like, "In order to be saved, you must believe in Jesus AND have purple tennis shoes," there would be someone on earth who did not have access to purple tennis shoes. Someone would get left out.

It is the same with baptism... If baptism is NECESSARY for salvation, then you have a problem. What is someone gets saved, but is does not have access to water and dies before they are able to make it to be baptized?? For example, what if someone gets saved on an air plane, and the plane crashes before they get a chance to be baptized?? I could come up with hundreds of reasonable, valid scenarios where someone could receive Christ, but die before being baptized.

I mean, there are no loopholes, no exceptions if baptism is NECESSARY. If you can bring yourself to admit that is ONE situation where God might save someone without having been immersed in water, then the entire "baptism is necessary for salvation" argument collapses like a house of cards.

Shiloh, your colorful analogies and "what if" scenarios are interesting to say the least. I cannot answer "what if" scenarios....I can only go by what the Word of God teaches.

The question was, what is needed on our part for salvation to be imparted unto us? You answered twice that nothing more than faith is needed; in essence, we simply have to believe in the Gospel of Christ and we are saved.

unfortunately, your answer is flawed. What about REPENTANCE? Does God do that for us also? Is that a "work"? God forbid. Without repentance, belief in the Savior will not save you. This is the first step in the plan of salvation. (and which, by the way, is not found in the clever ABC plan of salvation)

Most people in the world don't have purple tennis shoes(I know I don't, anyway), but most have, or if needed, can gain access to water (sheesh, most of this world is water). As far as admitting to one situation in which someone was not baptized and saved anyhow, I can't "admit" that per the Bible doesn't give me license to admit that. Can you give me an example of someone who died believing, but not baptized, and yet went to heaven? As far as those who Jesus forgave and invited to paradise while he was on earth.....again that was another dispensation, and as of yet there was no way to apply the Blood of Christ to one's life, for the blood was not poured out yet.

That argument is similiar to the non-Christian's argument of "how can a loving God send good people to Hell?" Simply put, they didn't obey. In Noah's day, only 8 were saved by "water", and that is likened to this baptism. 1 peter 3:20-21.

Peace

[bison.78]

Your arguments are persuasive, but please fortify your rebuttal with scripture.

I use the same Scriptures that are being presented to prove that baptism is necessary for salvation. I simply apply proper hermeneutics to them.

Our LORD Jesus Christ (God) Baptizes In The Holy Ghost (God) And He Always Does The Will Of His Farther (God)

"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" Luke 3:16

The Gift Of God's Grace

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Even Saving Belief In The LORD Jesus Christ

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Who Draws Us With His Love

"The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." Jeremiah 31:3

Because We Are His Joy

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2

Saves Us

Why Would Any Believer Want To Splash Cold Water On The Blood That Redeems....

"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" Colossians 1:20-23

FresnoJoe: All of these scriptures are great, but when put in their proper perspective with other scripture, giving a complete picture of the plan of salvation. As was stated in an earlier post, we cannot just go to Ephesians or Romans and pull out a scripture and say " this is what salvation entails". These epistles were written to the Church, people who were already baptized and had the gifts of the Spirit in operation. They were not written to the secular world and therefore cannot be looked upon as the sole authoritative writing; the historical background of the early church must be used along with these for full understanding.

Praise Him

The Bible is the final arbiter on all matters of Christian faith and practice. I don't need the history of the church to define for me what Christianity is.

When I referred to the history of the Church, I was referring to the book of Acts, which is part of the Bible.

I apologize if I offended you.

Peace

[bison.78]

Can one enter into heaven with sin?? So if you are saying that one does not have to be baptized in order to go to heaven, then how is their sin remitted. Sins are remitted when one is baptized, fully emersed in water with the name of Jesus applied. We are buried in baptism and our sins are washed away. The Devil believes and trembles...is he saved....no.

If you actually believe what you seem to be saying, that sin is remitted only after baptism, then Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient enough to save us. Is that what you are saying? You can't have it both ways. Either Christ's blood is enough and you don't need baptism to be saved, or Christ's blood plus something else brings salvation.

Rick, Baptism is the means by which Christ's Blood is applied to our lives....here's scripture to prove it:

In the OT, the sins of the people could not be cancelled out, or remitted, without a sacrifice/ offering...

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Which, as we know, typifies Christ offering Himself for our sins. What is the purpose of Christ's Blood?

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

That being said, how can we apply this Blood that remits sin to our lives on a pragmatic level?

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ( for what purpose?) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Baptism and Belief in Christ go hand in hand.....you can't have one without the other.

I believe the same point was made by guitarman, if I am reitterating, I apologize.

Praise Him

I am sorry, but this type of proof texting only highlights the weakness of your position. Anyone can grab a verse from here, a verse from there, and string them together like lights on a Christmas tree and make the Bible say whatevery they want. That is a very unreliable and highly subjective means of estabish a doctrine.

The major red flag of false doctrine is prooftexting. There are various major discussions of salvation in the Bible. Take two major treatese on salvation, namely Romans 10 and Ephesians 2. In neither case is baptism is ever mentioned as part of the equation where salvation is concerned. If baptism is necessary for salvation, it would be in every passage in the New Testament pertaining to salvation.

Shiloh, can you please demonstrate why you believe this line of reasoning is invalid? If it is false, expose it.

As far as Romans 10 and Ephesians 2 are concerned, these epistles are written to the CHURCH, the saints of God who have already been baptized...it is unnecessary to bring up baptism to someone who has already been baptized....in almost every instance in which someone outside of Christ is addressed,baptism is a part of the salvific ( I like that word) plan.

Just as in Romans, Paul and Silas told the keeper of the prison: Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Now we could just stop there if we choose to and say that that is salvation, just like in Romans and Ephesians, but:

Ac 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Ac 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Again, in Acts 15, we have Peter addressing Jews that were upset because Christian gentiles weren't observing the Law.

Ac 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Ac 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Ac 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Ac 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Ac 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Now this bears a striking resemblance to Ephesians 2...and they are actually addressing the same situation. In verse 10 of this passage, the Jewish brethen are accused of trying to yoke the neck of the gentile Christians by observing Jewish Law, which in Ephesians 2 is called "works". This has nothing to do with baptism or repentance, but everything to do with legalism.

Furthermore, Verse 11 is in reference to Cornelius' house, who once they recieved the Holy Ghost were commanded to be baptized.

Peace and Grace

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, your colorful analogies and "what if" scenarios are interesting to say the least. I cannot answer "what if" scenarios....I can only go by what the Word of God teaches.

The problem is that you cannot guarantee that EVERYONE will have access to immersion in water immediately after being saved. The "what if" scenarios simply point out a fatal flaw in what you THINK the Bible teaches. The truth is that the Bible does not teach that baptism in a necessary element in salvation.

As far as Romans 10 and Ephesians 2 are concerned, these epistles are written to the CHURCH, the saints of God who have already been baptized...it is unnecessary to bring up baptism to someone who has already been baptized....in almost every instance in which someone outside of Christ is addressed,baptism is a part of the salvific ( I like that word) plan.

Following that logic a bit further, why bring up salvation at all if they were already saved? It would seem equally unnecessary to bring up salvation to someone who is already saved. Sorry, but that logic doesn't hold water.

Secondly, baptism is taught as necessary and essential to the life a Christian and so it does not at all seem out of place that they would baptize people as soon as practicable. However, that falls far short of being able to make the claim that they were baptizing them in order to complete the salvation "process."

In Romans 10, the Bible teaches that with the heart man believeth unto righteousness. The moment you believe the gospel and make a decsion for Christ, you are born again.

Again, in Acts 15, we have Peter addressing Jews that were upset because Christian gentiles weren't observing the Law.

No, the question they were addressing was the mystery of how Gentiles could be saved without being circumcised. Circumcision pre-dates the Law. Circumcision pertains joining one's self to the nation of Israel and becoming a Jew. The essential issue being raised is how do uncircumcized Gentiles get to be equal participants in the blessings given to Israel though Abraham without becoming members of the nation of Israel.

Furthermore, Verse 11 is in reference to Cornelius' house, who once they recieved the Holy Ghost were commanded to be baptized.

Well whether it is a direct referece to Cornelius' house is debatable; however, the people at Cornelious' house were already saved before being baptized as evidenced by the fact that they had the Holy Spirit prior to water immersion.

[Guest shiloh357]

What about REPENTANCE? Does God do that for us also? Is that a "work"? God forbid. Without repentance, belief in the Savior will not save you. This is the first step in the plan of salvation. (and which, by the way, is not found in the clever ABC plan of salvation)

Repentance is simply a response to the gospel. Repentance simply means to "turn around." Repentance can occur before or after one is saved. It should be an every day thing.

Repentance is a daily attitude of the heart. None of us are sinless and perfect, and we are constantly (or should be) repenting of sins in our lives along the process of sanctification.

[Guest shiloh357]

Most people in the world don't have purple tennis shoes(I know I don't, anyway), but most have, or if needed, can gain access to water (sheesh, most of this world is water).

Yet, there are reasonable scenarios were one might die before having access to a body of water sufficient for baptismal purposes.

As far as admitting to one situation in which someone was not baptized and saved anyhow, I can't "admit" that per the Bible doesn't give me license to admit that. Can you give me an example of someone who died believing, but not baptized, and yet went to heaven?

No, I cannot do that from the Scriptures. However, I can show that those in Cornelius's house were saved prior to baptism

That argument is similiar to the non-Christian's argument of "how can a loving God send good people to Hell?" Simply put, they didn't obey.

There is absolutely no similarity between that kind of argument and the issue being raised here.

In Noah's day, only 8 were saved by "water", and that is likened to this baptism. 1 peter 3:20-21.

No, theyw ere not saved "by" water. The original Greek tells us that they were saved "through" the water. The flood of water was the instrument of judgment, not the instrument of salvation. It was the ark that saved Noah and his family, not the water.

[bison.78]

Shiloh, this is the post (what you claim to be proof texting) I was asking you to expose if you found it to be false, not the other.Rick, Baptism is the means by which Christ's Blood is applied to our lives....here's scripture to prove it:

In the OT, the sins of the people could not be cancelled out, or remitted, without a sacrifice/ offering...

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Which, as we know, typifies Christ offering Himself for our sins. What is the purpose of Christ's Blood?

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

That being said, how can we apply this Blood that remits sin to our lives on a pragmatic level?

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ( for what purpose?) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Baptism and Belief in Christ go hand in hand.....you can't have one without the other.

I believe the same point was made by guitarman, if I am reitterating, I apologize.

Praise Him