Do you have to be baptized to go to Heaven?

[bison.78]

Can you give me an example of someone who died believing, but not baptized, and yet went to heaven?

Luke 23:39-43 One of the criminals who was hanged insulted him, saying, "If you are the Christ, save yourself and us!"

But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Don`t you even fear God, seeing you are in the same condemnation?

And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong."

He said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

He said to him, "Most assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (WEB)

Does this answer you question? There is an exception, isn't there. IMO, this destroys any stand that baptism is required for salvation and remission of sin. But, I know it won't because no one is going to shange their stand on this issue. No matter how much proof is provided.

False. This is a common argument, and I've already addressed it several times. This was not in the dispensation of Grace, in which salvation is only acquired by having the Blood of Christ applied to one's life through baptism and believe in Christ.

Peace.

[Richard_yaash]

Prooftext, prooftexting

A prooftext is a verse or short passage from the Bible used by someone as part of his proof for a doctrinal belief he wishes to substantiate to others. However, since verses and passages may rely extensively on the context in which they appear for correct interpretation, pulling these out of their context and having them stand alone in a "proof" can, at times, be very misleading. In addition, a set of such prooftexts can completely ignore other passages which, if added to the mix, might well lead to an entirely different conclusion. Someone who relies strongly only on a list of prooftexts in order to make a doctrinal argument may have a very weak case for his argument. Noting that a religious teacher relies heavily just on prooftexting is viewed in theological circles as a very negative evaluation. Taken from Biblestudy.org

Sad but true...

[bison.78]

The problem is that you cannot guarantee that EVERYONE will have access to immersion in water immediately after being saved. The "what if" scenarios simply point out a fatal flaw in what you THINK the Bible teaches. The truth is that the Bible does not teach that baptism in a necessary element in salvation.

No one can guarantee anything but God...however, I don't see a fatal flaw in the scriptures presented. You are refuting my points, but there is no scripture to show otherwise.

I am just pointing out that since it is possible for someone to be excluded from salvation by not have a necessary element, and the fact that they could die before being able to appropriate such element, it shows the error in your theology. Salvation is only for those lucky enough to get baptized. If they die before getting access to water, sorry Charlie.

The problem is that by saying baptism is NECESSARY for salvation, you have removed the possiblity of any exceptions. You have no grounds to say that God will find another way for them to be saved outside of what is "necessary." Essentially, you paint yourself into a corner with type of argument.

The problem is, it's not what I'm saying, but what has been shown through scripture thus far. It's not my opinion, the Word bears it out.

Following that logic a bit further, why bring up salvation at all if they were already saved? It would seem equally unnecessary to bring up salvation to someone who is already saved. Sorry, but that logic doesn't hold water.

No. He wasnt telling them how to get saved, rather he was letting them know that they were not subject to neither circumcision nor the law..... I've explained that already.

yes, but that is beside the point. The point I am making is that you cannot claim that baptism was unnecessary to discuss with those who were already baptized. Whether he is telling them how to get saved or not, is irrelevant. My point is that if baptism is unecessary to bring up with those who are already baptized as you previously indicated, then it would also follow that salvation would be equally as unecessary to discuss with those already saved. I am simply showing the erroneous, short-sighted logic you employed. IN every major discussion of salvation, justification, being born again, no mention is ever made of immersion into water as being a necessary element to those things.

Actually, thee very first discussion on salvation gives mention to baptism as a necessary element; Acts 2:38.

The reason Paul had to address the issue of salvation to those already saved is because there were some who would teach that they needed to observe the Law as well as Grace. These are mutually exclusive. Paul did not have to address baptism because noone was refuting the neccesity of baptism.

I never said salvation was a "process". When I brought up repentance, I was making the point that we do have to do something more than just believe.

By adding to the gospel, you hvae inadvertantly turned it into a process. Faith in Jesus is not enough. By needing to baptized, Jesus is less than sufficient. By having to depend and place trust in baptism to ensure your salvation, you and Jesus become co-saviors. Suddenly the savlation is no longer a work of God but a synthesis of you and Him. Sorry, but God does not share His glory with anyone.

This is a moot point. I was making a point about baptism, not whether the Law is equated with circumcision or not.

I know, I was just correcting your understanding of what they were really arguing about.

Actually, circumcision was part of the Law. (although it did predate the Law) Leviticus 12:3

Edited March 1, 2008 by bison.78

[bison.78]

Prooftext, prooftexting

A prooftext is a verse or short passage from the Bible used by someone as part of his proof for a doctrinal belief he wishes to substantiate to others. However, since verses and passages may rely extensively on the context in which they appear for correct interpretation, pulling these out of their context and having them stand alone in a "proof" can, at times, be very misleading. In addition, a set of such prooftexts can completely ignore other passages which, if added to the mix, might well lead to an entirely different conclusion. Someone who relies strongly only on a list of prooftexts in order to make a doctrinal argument may have a very weak case for his argument. Noting that a religious teacher relies heavily just on prooftexting is viewed in theological circles as a very negative evaluation. Taken from Biblestudy.org

Sad but true...

Richard, please review the post that this definition is pertaining to and if you find it to be erroneous, expose it.

God Bless

[bison.78]

What about REPENTANCE? Does God do that for us also? Is that a "work"? God forbid. Without repentance, belief in the Savior will not save you. This is the first step in the plan of salvation. (and which, by the way, is not found in the clever ABC plan of salvation)

Repentance is simply a response to the gospel. Repentance simply means to "turn around." Repentance can occur before or after one is saved. It should be an every day thing.

Repentance is a daily attitude of the heart. None of us are sinless and perfect, and we are constantly (or should be) repenting of sins in our lives along the process of sanctification.

Question: If a person confesses with their mouth and believes in their heart that Jesus is Lord, yet never gets around to repenting from their sin, is that person saved?

True repentance is lived out, not simply declared verbally, so if a person continues to live in sin AFTER professing Christ, then it would appear that their initial profession and verbal declaration of repentance were not genuine.

So, then, your answer to the question is no they are not saved...if they follow Romans 10 believing the Gospel and proffessing Christ but still do not repent, they are not saved? Is this what you are saying?

[Rick-Parker]

So, then, your answer to the question is no they are not saved...if they follow Romans 10 believing the Gospel and proffessing Christ but still do not repent, they are not saved? Is this what you are saying?

As Satan does? Believing the Bible and saying that Christ is the Messiah is just lip service. You have to believe it with every fiber of your being; you have to obey him with every ounce of energy; you have to change your behavior (because you cannot resist.) If those things don't occur in one's life, then I would have strong, lingering doubt about one's salvation.

[bison.78]

So, then, your answer to the question is no they are not saved...if they follow Romans 10 believing the Gospel and proffessing Christ but still do not repent, they are not saved? Is this what you are saying?

As Satan does? Believing the Bible and saying that Christ is the Messiah is just lip service. You have to believe it with every fiber of your being; you have to obey him with every ounce of energy; you have to change your behavior (because you cannot resist.) If those things don't occur in one's life, then I would have strong, lingering doubt about one's salvation.

Rick: I do not disagree with any of this. what you say is true. You NEED to REPENT in order for Romans 10 to be effective. Is this "adding to the Gospel" also?

[Richard_yaash]

Richard, please review the post that this definition is pertaining to and if you find it to be erroneous, expose it.

I was simply commenting upon that manner of using the Scriptures, for I have seen it done too many times. My reply had nothing else to do with the thread nor was it related to you per se.

If you would be so kind as to provide me a direct link to the post in question, I would not mind reading through it and perhaps commenting. Ok, I admit it, I am being too lazy to go searching to find the post in question and am taking the lazy way out. However, perhaps you would still be so kind as I am sure you know exactly what post it is. Thank you.

[Rick-Parker]

So, then, your answer to the question is no they are not saved...if they follow Romans 10 believing the Gospel and proffessing Christ but still do not repent, they are not saved? Is this what you are saying?

As Satan does? Believing the Bible and saying that Christ is the Messiah is just lip service. You have to believe it with every fiber of your being; you have to obey him with every ounce of energy; you have to change your behavior (because you cannot resist.) If those things don't occur in one's life, then I would have strong, lingering doubt about one's salvation.

Rick: I do not disagree with any of this. what you say is true. You NEED to REPENT in order for Romans 10 to be effective. Is this "adding to the Gospel" also?

I don't think so. I believe that it is proof of salvation, not a requirement for salvation.

[Guest]

Rick: I do not disagree with any of this. what you say is true. You NEED to REPENT in order for Romans 10 to be effective. Is this "adding to the Gospel" also?

Repentance Comes From The Holy Spirit (But Than Again You Knew That I Think)

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 16:7-15

This Is The Same Holy Spirit That The Lord Jesus Baptizes Us Into.

John Baptized With Water As God Instructed Him To

We Baptize With Water As God Instructs Us To

There Is No Salvation In Man's Works

But Jesus Baptizes With The Holy Spirit

And A New Creation Is Born

And All Heaven Rejoices

And God Is Glorified

And No Man Brags

Hallelujah!

bison.78 Why Would A Humble Sinner-Saved-By-The-Blood-Of-The-Lamb Want To Splash Around Worthy Tossing Water Into The Face Of Grace?

Is It An Honest Brother Confused Between God's Given Ordnance Of Water Baptism By Man And God's Holy Work Of Salvation Through Jesus Christ And Him Crucified?

Are You Really Here Seeking To Learn Of God's Truth?

Are You Teachable?

Or Are You Here To Teach Another Gospel?

Even A False Gospel Of Man's Work For The Remission oF Sin?

Why Would One Attempt To Drown The Faithful In Quibbles Over Man's Water Baptism Standing In The Place Of The Lord Jesus Christ's Baptism Into The Regenerative Work Of God The Holy Ghost.

bison.78, Who Sent You To Worthy?

The Only Thing Needful

Believe

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

And You Are Saved

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

Believe Not And You Stay Condemned

See Jesus, Believed And Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe