Openly Curious Posted March 1, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 1, 2008 What happens with a Christian person who falls off the wagon and starts to drink alcohol again after being away from it for years. Are they condemned by God? Are they still a saint? Should and do they still have fellowship with the church or do they get kicked out? I am serious about the answers and comments that are given as I really want to hear what others have to say thanks OC There are many good posts here to draw from. For me personally, I was in and out of my faith for many years. When I was out, I was both drinking and using drugs, but, and here is how I see it, the Holy Spirit continued to work in my life, convicting me of my sins and returning me to Him. To answer you questions would require me to 1) Become God in order to know if the person was condemned or not; 2) Know what your definition of a Saint is and your qualification of being one; 3) Know the behavior of this person in Church. Since all three are not possible at this point, I can only answer in this manner. 1) Only God knows. 2) Only God knows 3) The church is full of sinners, and rightly so. The love we have from His Spirit would never allow us to kick them out, but would lead us to help this individual in their troubles. Alcoholics are still brothers or sisters in the Lord. To condemn them, except for certain behavioral traits and false teachings, would be unchristian behavior. Hello OneLight, I think it is fair enough for you to ask me more questions in order for you to understand me more in depth. 1) I don't think you have to become God to share any views you may have on the subject as we are speaking in general terms and not about any one certain individual. I think one can give their view of what a sinner or believer is to them as a sinner is in unbelief and a believer is walking in their faith. But when and if a person does come to a place that they cross they line. Hope you know what I am trying to say here. 2) My definition of a Saint is simply they are a believer and a person who practices or lives out their faith and are known as a believer someone who believes in Christ. The qualification of becoming a saint is very simple as one has to be sorrowful of their sins and confess those sins with their mouth and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and believe that Christ rose from the dead on the third day. And all that call upon the Lord shall be saved. But it takes an outward confession of these things and simply recieving the free gift of eternal life that Christ made possible by His death on the cross. 3) Since this isn't speaking of any one individual I would like your opinions from any angle as long as the subject is on alcohol feel free to take your liberty. blessings OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted March 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 2, 2008 This would depend on the church that person attends. In a very liberal church, they would likely allow Otis Campbell to be a member in good standing, and possibly even a deacon. While that might seem ridiculous to some, remember that many churches allow practicing homosexuals to be Pastors. Assuming you are speaking of Bible-believing churches, the very strict ones that have rules against members drinking any amount of alcohol would likely put a member out if they continued to drink. The ones that follow the guidelines against drinking to the point of drunkeness would likely base their decision on if the person was drinking in excess, or just a little bit with meals or to relax. God's Word is pretty clear on the matter. While no drunkard will inherit the Kingdom of God, the Bible doesn't forbid drinking alcohol. I do not drink, but have found nothing in scripture condemning it in moderation. You have brought some good thoughts to this thread and I thank you for them. I noticed that you mentioned Otis Campbell who was a town drunk on the Andy Griffith show. You make a good point in your example in how some liberal churches might accept a known drunkard like Otis like they are accepting homosexuals in the church and putting them into positions to serve so you make your point quite well. Otis Campbell I remember was accepted in the church of Mayberry but would always return to drinking. I didn't think and I don't know why it didn't cross my mind but there are strick churches and there are liberal churches and each type of church has there own rules in what and what is not allowed concerning alchol. Alot of churches even have manuals telling what is expected of the member once they join a church and I know a few that says in their manuals that a member should not engage in the drinking of alchol. So in those churches if someone drank any alchol they would be put out of the church for it. No need for me to continue as I got what you were conveying in regards to the individual rules of the churches. The last statement you make makes it all confusion because different churches have different rules and it is obvious that some of the churches would be going against the bible especially if one had the belief that you can drink alcohol in moderation so the churches who forbid it's members to drink any alcohol at all as a member then if they get kicked out for drinking in moderation would obviously be going against what the word teaches or at least that is the way I am taking things. I do thank you for your comments blessings OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted March 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.06 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2008 if perhaps you had a 10 mo old trying to walk and they go so far and then wobble and fall...How would any mom or dad will react to that stumbling child? I know I would go over in a nurturing way, dry the tears ..hug that child...clean there pants if they get dirty, encourage them to try again....maybe walking a little closer. That is how i see our father in heaven, loving and caring... but to take advantage is another story, of His mercy and Grace. patricia1 That's a great analogy, patricia. You hit that one right out of the park! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted March 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.06 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2008 Assuming you are speaking of Bible-believing churches, the very strict ones that have rules against members drinking any amount of alcohol would likely put a member out if they continued to drink. The ones that follow the guidelines against drinking to the point of drunkeness would likely base their decision on if the person was drinking in excess, or just a little bit with meals or to relax. God's Word is pretty clear on the matter. While no drunkard will inherit the Kingdom of God, the Bible doesn't forbid drinking alcohol. I do not drink, but have found nothing in scripture condemning it in moderation. I agree, Butero. I don't drink alcohol either (only because I can't stand it!) but I wouldn't condemn someone who has an occasional drink. Didn't Jesus sometimes drink wine during his mortal lifetime? I'm of the opinion that it's only the excessive use of alcohol that is wrong. Still, those who have that problem need support from the church, not condemnation. It's a sickness after all. I'd point out that if George Bush could walk away from alcohol and go on to become the 43rd President, with the help of the Lord, then no one is hopeless and God would not turn His back on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.19 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2008 What happens with a Christian person who falls off the wagon and starts to drink alcohol again after being away from it for years. Are they condemned by God? Are they still a saint? Should and do they still have fellowship with the church or do they get kicked out? I am serious about the answers and comments that are given as I really want to hear what others have to say thanks OC We are all sinners. Being an Alcoholic is just one of many. Are they condemned by God? I would have to say that they will loose favor in His eyes, but not condemned. I am a recovered alcoholic (I say recovered because Jesus has set me free) that was once in the very shoes of the person you described. I use to go to church after a hard night drinking and drugging, so I am a bit biased in my opinion. I was not kicked out, but I was not welcomed with open arms neither. I did, however, hear the word spoken to me and the conviction from His Spirit did move me. I certainly would not of considered myself a saint by any means, for I was living in sin up to my eyeballs. Yet, you speak of one who walked closely with God, but for some reason, lost their faith that God would/could help. This is why I answered the was I did in my first post. Was this person an Elder or Deacon or Pastor? If so, then they should be removed according to 1 Timothy 2&3 and Titus 1. If not, then they are just as much a saint when they are not given to drink as anyone else is. They are, in deed, going through some very hard times that would cause them to be so distressed to turn back to the crutch that they were delivered from. We have to remember that the person that people becomes after consuming alcohol is not the person they wish to be. They are using drinking to cover a deeper pain, one that the church should be there to help mend. I hope this is more of an answer you were looking for. OneLight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted March 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 2, 2008 Thank you 'OneLight' for elobaration further what was in your heart and I am glad that you are a "Recovering" alcholic and Jesus has put His hand upon your life. I am having a struggle in determining when a person is or when a person actually becomes an alcholic like what is the determining factor. In my life I have had my personal problems with alchol, drugs and all them things so I know what that kind of lifestyle is like. But knowing when one crosses the line of drinking in moderation is a mystery to me at this point in my walk. Again I sincerly thank you for sharing your thoughts blessings OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard_yaash Posted March 2, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 940 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/10/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2008 I am having a struggle in determining when a person is or when a person actually becomes an alcholic like what is the determining factor. In my life I have had my personal problems with alchol, drugs and all them things so I know what that kind of lifestyle is like. But knowing when one crosses the line of drinking in moderation is a mystery to me at this point in my walk. Again I sincerly thank you for sharing your thoughts blessings OC If I may, and I am no expert: IMO it ceases to be in moderation when after the first glass [or two] one is unable to stop for the evening. In my further opinion, it matters not if it is every night, once a week or once a month. It is the inability to be able to say, I have had enough after one or two. I am no judge nor jury in the matter, nor would I dare to condemn anyone based upon my opinion stated above. It is just my opinion, I am no expert nor do I have any 'real' qualifications in the matter. For whatever it may or may not be worth, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.19 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2008 Thank you 'OneLight' for elobaration further what was in your heart and I am glad that you are a "Recovering" alcholic and Jesus has put His hand upon your life. I am having a struggle in determining when a person is or when a person actually becomes an alcholic like what is the determining factor. In my life I have had my personal problems with alchol, drugs and all them things so I know what that kind of lifestyle is like. But knowing when one crosses the line of drinking in moderation is a mystery to me at this point in my walk. Again I sincerly thank you for sharing your thoughts blessings OC I've noticed you used the word "recovering" in place of "recovered". I don't see it that way. I know what they say in AA and what all of the professionals say, but they are not considering the Love of Jesus. Allow me to explain. When Jesus healed the blind man, was he a recovering blind man? When Jesus healed anyone, were they just recovering or were they healed. When Jesus healed me, he finished the job. I pay no mind to those who are learned and do not know the healing power of our Lord when they use terms like "recovering", for they plainly do not understand. Would some even worry that they may loose their jobs if people were actually healed? If you are seeking a yardstick to measure if anyone has crossed the invisible line into addiction, you must use the invisible yardstick, which would be discernment from the Holy Spirit. There are visible signs that we can try to see, such as hiding a bottle or drinking behind closed doors so nobody will see you. There is spending money that you should not spend. There is lying about how much they have drank. The list in very long, but still, this does not allow use to see into their heart to feel the strong desire to hide the underlaying problem or problems. This is where His Spirit comes into play. He will never lie to you about a question you truly seek an answer for. You may not be able to "prove" what He tells you, but you will know it is the truth. If this person is yourself, then take it before the Lord. Jesus will be very blunt with you if you ask for the truth. I know this as a fact. He was with me. He was also there when I quit, removing the desire to ever return, and taking the pain away. In Him, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted March 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 2, 2008 If I may, and I am no expert: IMO it ceases to be in moderation when after the first glass [or two] one is unable to stop for the evening. In my further opinion, it matters not if it is every night, once a week or once a month. It is the inability to be able to say, I have had enough after one or two. I am no judge nor jury in the matter, nor would I dare to condemn anyone based upon my opinion stated above. It is just my opinion, I am no expert nor do I have any 'real' qualifications in the matter. For whatever it may or may not be worth, Richard Hello Richard Yaash, It seems you are speaking from the "wherein is excess" point of view and what you have shared with us thus far does shed more light on being in "excess." When I think about what you have said it made me think of "excess" which that to me means is that the drinker always drinks more than a moderate drinker. But again I can't see the dividing line from going from moderation to excessive. I know there is a difference between the two drinkers. But some folks seem to have different amounts and ideas about what that dividing line really is you say in your example that it is after one or two glasses and if one is able to stop and continue to drink the rest of the evening then that drinker is in excess. But you also said that it didn't matter that if it was every night, one time a week, or just one time a month that they drank still the drinker does not have the ability to stop drinking but will continue on drinking. I also gave thoughts to your words about a person not having the "ability" to say, "NO" I can't imagine a person having not the ability to say, no. It sounds like a handicapp for those type of drinkers and it seems if it really is a handicapp as they possess not the ability to say, no then it seems that God surely wouldn't hold that against a person as they can't help it cause they don't have the ability to do it. I could be wrong in my thoughts as I have been before. But I do so appreciate your views and opinions feel free to share more of what is in your heart on the subject as I am looking to learn seeking for answers. blessings OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted March 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 2, 2008 Thank you 'OneLight' for elobaration further what was in your heart and I am glad that you are a "Recovering" alcholic and Jesus has put His hand upon your life. I am having a struggle in determining when a person is or when a person actually becomes an alcholic like what is the determining factor. In my life I have had my personal problems with alchol, drugs and all them things so I know what that kind of lifestyle is like. But knowing when one crosses the line of drinking in moderation is a mystery to me at this point in my walk. Again I sincerly thank you for sharing your thoughts blessings OC I've noticed you used the word "recovering" in place of "recovered". I don't see it that way. I know what they say in AA and what all of the professionals say, but they are not considering the Love of Jesus. Allow me to explain. When Jesus healed the blind man, was he a recovering blind man? When Jesus healed anyone, were they just recovering or were they healed. When Jesus healed me, he finished the job. I pay no mind to those who are learned and do not know the healing power of our Lord when they use terms like "recovering", for they plainly do not understand. Would some even worry that they may loose their jobs if people were actually healed. Hello OneLight, I want to apologize for the mistake I have made in using the word "Recovering" as I meant to use the word "Recovered" all along as I was responding to the part below in quote in your post. - OneLight-quote---I am a recovered alcoholic (I say recovered because Jesus has set me free) that was once in the very shoes of the person you described. I hope you will see my honest and sincere mistake as I was only glad for you in Jesus setting you free. I have never been to any AA meetings so I don't know what they are like. I know what you are speaking about when you talk of the miracles of Jesus and there was not one miracle Jesus did that the person didn't get set free or healed and Jesus never prayed a prayer that didn't get answered as the sweet love of Jesus can do miracles and not half way either. I apologize once again for my mistake. Feel free to share your views and opinions blessings OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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