"spiritual identification"

[Richard_yaash]

scripture makes it clear that god and satan claim each of their own with a spiritual "mark".

mark of satan:

(revelation 13:16) "He also caused everyone (small and great, rich and poor, free and slave) to obtain a mark on their right hand or on their forehead."

(revelation 15:2) "Then I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had conquered the beast and his image and the number of his name [mark]."

mark of god:

(ezekiel 9:3-4) "Then the glory of the God of Israel went up from the cherub where it had rested to the threshold of the temple. He called to the man dressed in linen who had the writing kit at his side. The Lord said to him,

[Richard_yaash]

This is not intended to be rude but to make people stop and think what they are saying compared to what scripture teaches so, let's use a little common sense here, shall we? Why would God or the devil even, need a physical mark to identify when they have very clear eyes for both the physical and the spiritual?

people are already bearing the seal or the mark....it's called fruit of the (s)Spirit and that is how we are told we can identify one another.

Nope, no physical marks, implants being forced on someone could not be considered simply because we are all given the choice to whom we serve....makes no sense that a forced implantation would be the mark of the beast since people must choose their master.....

Good post Jackie.

[Richard_yaash]

Both of these marks are to be administered during the 7 year tribulation. The Mark of the Beast will be given for the word tells us that we will not be able to buy or sell without it. The 144,000 are to be sealed by God as His words tells us. These will happen, or His word is not true.

If I may:

There is currently a spiritual 'mark' upon each of us. That 'mark' being in our thoughts and upon our actions.

IMO: The forehead is representative of the frontal lobe of the brain. It is the part of the brain in which we reason, make decisions. When lobotomies were in practice, a person receiving such would lose the ability to reason and make decisions for themselves.

The hand, represents our actions. For what and how we think, so to do our actions follow from. I am sure we have all heard someone at some point in our lives tell us to: "Think before we act". Thus the imperative need to:

Deuteronomy 6:5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

Deuteronomy 11:16 Be careful, or you will be enticed to turn away and worship other gods and bow down to them. 17Then the LORD

[OneLight]

I don't believe everything in Revelation is pictorial. I believe we have to divide what is real and what is pictorial. If it was all pictorial, then we can say there were no real churches, as spoken in Revelation 1 through 3. We can forget about the seals, trumpets and bowls. We could also forget about Revelation 7:1-8. and on and on and on ... Just because we can not see it, it doesn't mean it is not true. Yes, He does show us in pictorial form as HE, through John, describes the harlot, the whore and other factors, which are not physical as described, but when it comes to the mark and the seal, I believe it will be all so true.

How are those who belong to the beast going to tell the Christians from the non-Christian when it comes time to buy and sell? Do you think they will ask everyone in line if they believe and have a lie detector present to ensure what they are told to be the truth? I foresee a time when money will not exist as it does today. It first started with checks, then credit cards, and I believe the next step will in fact be an implant that will give a code. Will it look like "666" .. I doubt it very much ... to easy. It will, however, contain the number of the beast in the code that can be scanned. Then, what about the two witnesses? Will they be real? Will the whole world see their dead bodies laying at the gate for three and a half days before they are resurrected? Two hundred years ago, if someone said that it would be possible to see dead men on the other side of the world, they would of thought you were crazy, yet , today, it only takes two seconds to broadcast over satellites. At the same time, if someone said we would travel to the other side of the world by air travel, we would of been locked up. We allow science to go forward without even allowing God's word the same justice. I, for one, have complete faith that as the time draws nearer, He will open our eyes even more, and what sounds ludicrous today, will make since tomorrow.

To say that the whole of Revelations it pictorial may be how you see it, but it is not how I see it at all.

Editorials in blue

[jackie d]

I don't believe everything in Revelation is pictorial. I believe we have to divide what is real and what is pictorial. If it was all pictorial, then we can say there were no real churches, as spoken in Revelation 1 through 3. We can forget about the seals, trumpets and bowls. We could also forget about Revelation 7:1-8. and on and on and on ... Just because we can not see it, it doesn't mean it is not true. Yes, He does show us in pictorial form as HE, through John, describes the harlot, the whore and other factors, which are not physical as described, but when it comes to the mark and the seal, I believe it will be all so true.

How are those who belong to the beast going to tell the Christians from the non-Christian when it comes time to buy and sell? Do you think they will ask everyone in line if they believe and have a lie detector present to ensure what they are told to be the truth? I foresee a time when money will not exist as it does today. It first started with checks, then credit cards, and I believe the next step will in fact be an implant that will give a code. Will it look like "666" .. I doubt it very much ... to easy. It will, however, contain the number of the beast in the code that can be scanned. Then, what about the two witnesses? Will they be real? Will the whole world see their dead bodies laying at the gate for three and a half days before they are resurrected?

To say that the whole of Revelations it pictorial may be how you see it, but it is not how I see it at all.

and that's fine, I didn't post to begin a great debate on it...just my two cents

when I speak of the pictoral I am not speaking of the church as we already know the church exists (however I'm not about to start splitting hairs between the obvious and the obscure) I speak of things like 7 headed dragons and a lady of the evening and riding upon it's back and such...but since you are aware that parts like these are pictoral then there is no sence in arguing those points either.

.I hate to say this but the writers of the left behind series and others like them have done many people a great disservice for they managed to solidify in many peoples minds things that have been born of imagination....an identification of a physical mark on the forehead or the hand is one of the many. Heck pre-trib rapture all the way around is nothing more than wild imagination....but that's another topic

anyhow OneLight, again not speaking to get into great debate about this topic...be blessed brother

[OneLight]

I hate to say this but the writers of the left behind series and others like them have done many people a great disservice for they managed to solidify in many peoples minds things that have been born of imagination....an identification of a physical mark on the forehead or the hand is one of the many. Heck pre-trib rapture all the way around is nothing more than wild imagination....but that's another topic

anyhow OneLight, again not speaking to get into great debate about this topic...be blessed brother

Please, never hate to say what you feel is the truth! I stand beside you on what ever is put out in movies. I gave up watching them a long time ago. The damage was to those who had no idea what the truth was before even watching them, and now refer back to them because they were put out by people who claim to be Christians, as if the movie itself was biblical.

In His Love,

Your Brother,

Alan

Edited to say that I am not judging the producers of the movies as if they are or are not Christians, for those who pick up on this issue.

[jackie d]

I hate to say this but the writers of the left behind series and others like them have done many people a great disservice for they managed to solidify in many peoples minds things that have been born of imagination....an identification of a physical mark on the forehead or the hand is one of the many. Heck pre-trib rapture all the way around is nothing more than wild imagination....but that's another topic

anyhow OneLight, again not speaking to get into great debate about this topic...be blessed brother

Please, never hate to say what you feel is the truth! I stand beside you on what ever is put out in movies. I gave up watching them a long time ago. The damage was to those who had no idea what the truth was before even watching them, and now refer back to them because they were put out by people who claim to be Christians, as if the movie itself was biblical.

In His Love,

Your Brother,

Alan

Edited to say that I am not judging the producers of the movies as if they are or are not Christians, for those who pick up on this issue.

[Guest man]

Now, the 'mark of the beast': It is similar, yet different. I have long considered it as well as the buying and selling aspect, and have yet to reach a solid conclusion upon it. I will agree that some literal 'mark' may indeed be too obvious as others herein have stated. There does remain the possibility that buying and selling could be limited in other ways/manners that would cause exclusion to those whom truly seek to follow our loving Father.

Just some thoughts...

Could it be that the mark of the beast doesn't come from the beast, but from God? Is it possible that God will mark all of those who choose to follow the beast?

2 Thess. 2

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie.

Could this be the time when God marks the followers of the beast?

As for the buying and selling.....

I believe that when that time comes there will be 2 groups of people....those who follow the beast and those who follow God. I believe the beast is going to be a religious leader and all of those who follow him will swear allegiance to him. ( convert or die )

Everything will be run by the government. No more mom and pop stores. No more independent franchises. Everything will be government controlled. I think there will be certain conditions set up by the beast and anyone who does not adhere to them will be seen as an outsider and shuned by society. ( no buying or selling )

Daniel 7

23

[Richard_yaash]

This is just my take on the whole thing right now. Nothings etched in stone. It's just a theory of mine....you can take it or leave it.

While we have divergent POV's, it something to think about.

[humanoid]

really appreciate the responses/feedback/insight, guys.

Both of these marks are to be administered during the 7 year tribulation. The Mark of the Beast will be given for the word tells us that we will not be able to buy or sell without it. The 144,000 are to be sealed by God as His words tells us. These will happen, or His word is not true.

i was going to touch upon this aspect in the original post, as i've been thinking about what this may mean if indeed it is talking about a spiritual scenario (which i believe is the case).

the most logical/rational theory i have come up with is that we, being in the end days, are being more and more exposed to evil in society with each passing day. perhaps this evil will continue to grow so much, that there will soon be a time when true, genuine believers in christ will not be able to function or participate ("buy", "sell", etc.) in society without putting their salvation in jeapordy.

later in the passage it explains that there are those who will "overcome" the mark of the beast (following satan and the world). how will christians do this? by parting ways with the world and maintaining their cherished mark of god. i believe the genuine christians are indeed beginning to part ways with the world on varying levels, therefore reinforcing the theory that these spiritual marks are beginning to be obtained right now.

of course, this is merely conjecture...

Edited March 8, 2008 by humanoid