Atheists

[artsylady]

I hope you don't mind if I ask you again. Does this statement sound logical?

QUOTE

"We know very little of our universe. The unknowns far outweigh the knowns. But I do know that there is not an intelligent creator in charge of it all"?

I will get into it later, about whether NOT knowing or knowing is MORE logical, but for now, please tell me if you think the above makes logical sense.

I believe I already answered this. I think that it is AT LEAST as logical as saying, "We know very little of our universe. The unknowns far outweigh the knowns. But I DO know there is an intelligent creator in charge of it all."

I don't want you to compare the two right now. I'll do that later. For now, I just want to know if you think your own reasoning is logical.

.

[Grungekid]

Since when does anyone know anything for certain? Ask questions long enough and there won't be answers.

Well there are some things that I know for certain due to concrete proof. But without concrete proof, no one KNOWS if there is or isn't a god. So in that regard I guess we're ALL actually agnostic.

But to claim that an atheist who says, "I know there is no god" is arrogant, one must also agree that a christian who says, "I know there is a god" is also arrogant. There is exactly the same amount of concrete proof: 0.

Concrete proof? We don't need 'concrete' proof of something to believe in it. That's actually a lot harder to produce than it sounds. And I wouldn't say that atheists are necessarilly arrogant for saying, 'I know there is no God'. Just semantically incorrect. What makes me call them arrogant is their firm belief that they are somehow better or more moral than I am, and that it is somehow required that I share their belief in nothing.

[caughtinside]

"Agnostic," I can buy altho the word itself comes from the Greek, "lacking in understanding." Merci, et au revoir. Now I'm off to the revamped StarBucks for a small carmel latte. Meet me there. It's on yours truly.

Hi Arthur, More accurately it means "without knowledge", but close enough. Once we start parsing these words out they mushroom out of control! And make mine an espresso and you're on. I'll get the next one.

[caughtinside]

... And I wouldn't say that atheists are necessarilly arrogant for saying, 'I know there is no God'. Just semantically incorrect. What makes me call them arrogant is their firm belief that they are somehow better or more moral than I am, and that it is somehow required that I share their belief in nothing.

Wow! That's the seem reason I find christians arrogant: their firm belief that they are somehow better or more moral than I am, and that it is somehow required that I share their belief in THEIR GOD. I believe "I know there IS a god" is incorrect just as you feel "I know there is no god" is incorrect.

Between the two of you, you just said a mouthful!

[Grungekid]

... And I wouldn't say that atheists are necessarilly arrogant for saying, 'I know there is no God'. Just semantically incorrect. What makes me call them arrogant is their firm belief that they are somehow better or more moral than I am, and that it is somehow required that I share their belief in nothing.

Wow! That's the seem reason I find christians arrogant: their firm belief that they are somehow better or more moral than I am, and that it is somehow required that I share their belief in THEIR GOD. I believe "I know there IS a god" is incorrect just as you feel "I know there is no god" is incorrect.

I'm sure it is, and I think it's possible to be moral without a belief in God, but philosophically I see no sense in witholding faith that true morallity can exist, or is worth attaining, in a godless universe. Also, I'd like to note that there are limitations to philosophy, logic, and science, and although I try to have something to count on as a Christian, I also believe that there is a bit of room to leap the gap of evidence and hold onto belief, suspending doubt despite the lack of absolute proof.

[artsylady]

Why is my assertion any more bold than yours? You don't know that there IS life after death, but you want me to believe it even though there is no proof of it whatsoever. Your assertion is actually harder to believe than mine.

What about near death experiences, where people actually die and have experiences? Sometimes, their spirit actually moves to a location in another room and they can recount conversations that actually happened? Clinically dead but still aware?

What about the fact that when a human dies, there is actually a very slight weight loss directly after death? Could it be the spirit?

Einstein even said that there was too much energy in the human body and that it had to go somewhere upon death.

The most remote tribes on the planet have some belief that we are eternal and there is an afterlife. The Bible states that God has written eternity on the hearts of man, and everywhere you go, you see this.

Check out my quotes below. There are many more by very prominent atheists along these lines.

[artsylady]

really don't know what you are getting at. My own personal reasoning is that no one can know if there is a god. And yes, I think my reasoning is completely logical and in fact, correct.

Seems to me, with this mindset, you would have been one of those in medieval Europe that would have said that there was definitely no other land beyond the ocean.

You may not be able to see it at all, and also KNOW that you have only a limited view, but still believe that more land cannot exist.

How can one possibly admit that their knowledge is so very limited but know that God does not exist? I find the very admission astonishing.

[Grungekid]

Why is my assertion any more bold than yours? You don't know that there IS life after death, but you want me to believe it even though there is no proof of it whatsoever. Your assertion is actually harder to believe than mine.

What about near death experiences, where people actually die and have experiences? Sometimes, their spirit actually moves to a location in another room and they can recount conversations that actually happened? Clinically dead but still aware?

What about the fact that when a human dies, there is actually a very slight weight loss directly after death? Could it be the spirit?

Einstein even said that there was too much energy in the human body and that it had to go somewhere upon death.

The most remote tribes on the planet have some belief that we are eternal and there is an afterlife. The Bible states that God has written eternity on the hearts of man, and everywhere you go, you see this.

Check out my quotes below. There are many more by very prominent atheists along these lines.

I believe I already addressed near death experiences in this thread. Remote tribes don't believe in your god of the bible. Most societies on earth had religious beliefs to keep people in line but most christians don't see any validation in their claims. You want to point to their beliefs NOW to prove your point. Nope, can't have your cake and eat it too.

Sorry, I have sigs turned off.

Near-death experiences don't offer proof of God, they offer proof that there could be truth to dualism as described by classical western philosophers. Many occur in people who are considered dead by doctors, when the brain is not functioning or producing chemicals, and few drugs that could incur such experiences are being administered.

[Grungekid]

Sure, I realize that I don't have all the answers but I don't give god the credit for everything I don't know. I've stated before that I don't believe in a "god of the gaps." We may not know the answers but why attribute the unknown to god? People didn't know that germs could make you sick. People didn't know of many things. Where would society be if no one ever tried to find out answers because "god did it?"

How can I admit "knowledge is limited but know that god does not exist?" I didn't say that myself but I think that it is just as valid as admitting that knowledge is limited but KNOWING that god DOES exist. That admission is astonishing also.

The 'God of the gaps' is just as reasonable as offering inadequate naturalistic speculations that do not accurately explain the beginning of the universe, the forming of ancient prokaryotic bacteria from amino acids, creation of intelligance, etc.

[artsylady]

Why is my assertion any more bold than yours? You don't know that there IS life after death, but you want me to believe it even though there is no proof of it whatsoever. Your assertion is actually harder to believe than mine.

What about near death experiences, where people actually die and have experiences? Sometimes, their spirit actually moves to a location in another room and they can recount conversations that actually happened? Clinically dead but still aware?

What about the fact that when a human dies, there is actually a very slight weight loss directly after death? Could it be the spirit?

Einstein even said that there was too much energy in the human body and that it had to go somewhere upon death.

The most remote tribes on the planet have some belief that we are eternal and there is an afterlife. The Bible states that God has written eternity on the hearts of man, and everywhere you go, you see this.

Check out my quotes below. There are many more by very prominent atheists along these lines.

I believe I already addressed near death experiences in this thread. Remote tribes don't believe in your god of the bible. Most societies on earth had religious beliefs to keep people in line but most christians don't see any validation in their claims. You want to point to their beliefs NOW to prove your point. Nope, can't have your cake and eat it too.

I read through the thread and didn't see where you addressed near death experiences. How do you write them all off - especially the ones where people overhead conversations of people not even in the same room as the dead person? What about what Einstein said about energy or about the weight of a human being slightly lighter directly after death? I never stated taht people in remote tribes believe in the Christian God. I said they all believe in an afterlife of some sorts.

You say that there is no proof of anything we believe, but all of these can be considered at least. Sorry to say this, but for the hard-hearted, they are quickly dismissed and never given serious consideration.

Sorry, I have sigs turned off.

M.F. Rich: "Terrible horrors hang over my soul! I have given my immortality for gold; and its weight sinks me into a hopeless, helpless Hell!"

Thomas Paine

"I would give worlds if I had them, that The Age of Reason had never been published. O Lord, help me! Christ, help me! . . No, don't leave; stay with me! Send even a child to stay with me; for I am on the edge of Hell here alone. If ever the Devil had an agent, I have been that one."

Sir Thomas Scott: "Until this moment, I thought there was neither God nor hell; now I know and feel that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty!"

Sir Francis Newport,the head of an English infidel club: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell!"

Here are a few more.

Gibbon, the historian, a skeptic: "The present is a fleeting moment, the past is no more, and my prospect of futurity is dark and doubtful."

The last words of the atheist Mirabeau: "My sufferings are intolerable; I have within me a hundred years of life but not a moment's courage. Give me more laudanum that I may not think of eternity."

Caesar Borgia: --- "While I lived, I provided for everything but death; now I must die, and am unprepared to die."

Thomas Hobbs: --- "I say again, if I had the whole world at my disposal, I would give it to live one day. I am about to take a leap into the dark."

Voltaire: --- "I am abandoned by God and man; I will give you half of what I am worth if you will give me six months' life." (He said this to Dr. Fochin, who told him it could not be done.) "Then I shall die and go to hell!"

Robert Ingersoll: --- "O God, if there be a God, save my soul, if I have a soul!" (Some say it was this way: "Oh God, if there be a God, save my soul if I have a soul, from hell, if there be a hell!")