When is belief so wrong that it isn't saving belief?

[MorningGlory]

There needs to be a balance between determining when someone's doctrine is a false gospel and guarding against pulling up wheat with the tares (reference: Jesus' parable on the wheat and the tares).

Both Paul (in Colossians) and John (in 1 John) combated the false doctrine of Gnosticism in what they wrote. I also recall Paul speaking in general against false gospels.

But we do need to be careful about judging individuals with regard to their destiny. As Jesus said, you might pull up the wheat along with the tares. Sure, some tares are quite obvious. But some aren't. And sometime innocent wheat gets caught in the crossfire, so to speak.

So we need to approach this with wisdom and the fear of the Lord and love for the bretheren.

No where in Scriptures are we assigned the task of "pulling up tares". That is the job of our LORD's angels in the Last Day.

Now if you mean that we are to disfellowship ourselves with them, isn't that what we are supposed to do with the unregenerate? How is it that light is supposed to cooperate with darkness? Where is the the koinonia fellowship with someone who is not of the LORD?

At some point we need to be fruit inspectors, that is why we are given the model to identify believers. "You will know them for their love for one another".

More specific and to the point, do we witness to the Mormon? Before the ECT movement, it was sport for Protestants to evangelize Roman Catholics while Roman Catholics tried to bring Protestants back to the "True Church". Now because of this "doctrine divides" Bravo Sierra, we don't poach other church flocks. Is this a good thing?

There is a real reason for knowing when the line has been crossed and the Jesus that Alice believes in is not the same as the one Bob believes in. When Alice's Jesus is materially different from Bob's Jesus, wouldn't there be a break-up in fellowship because one is not in the faith, but is in some bogus faith? Does this even happen anymore?

Practical applications here.

[nebula]

No where in Scriptures are we assigned the task of "pulling up tares". That is the job of our LORD's angels in the Last Day.

I thought that is what I said . . . just in another way.

Now if you mean that we are to disfellowship ourselves with them, isn't that what we are supposed to do with the unregenerate? How is it that light is supposed to cooperate with darkness? Where is the the koinonia fellowship with someone who is not of the LORD?

At some point we need to be fruit inspectors, that is why we are given the model to identify believers. "You will know them for their love for one another".

More specific and to the point, do we witness to the Mormon? Before the ECT movement, it was sport for Protestants to evangelize Roman Catholics while Roman Catholics tried to bring Protestants back to the "True Church". Now because of this "doctrine divides" Bravo Sierra, we don't poach other church flocks. Is this a good thing?

There is a real reason for knowing when the line has been crossed and the Jesus that Alice believes in is not the same as the one Bob believes in. When Alice's Jesus is materially different from Bob's Jesus, wouldn't there be a break-up in fellowship because one is not in the faith, but is in some bogus faith? Does this even happen anymore?

Practical applications here.

You know, sometimes we can make things too complicated.

Jude 1:22, 23 - 22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

If you believe someone is in error, you try to correct them. Pray for them. Speak to them. If the church needs to get involved (i.e. a brother in sin), do so. But, hey - sometimes you are the one in the wrong.

But to use your analogy - if I see that you believe in a Jesus that isn't a Jew, should I hound you about this?

[Guest]

One Choice

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

John 3:36

Choose Wisely

"I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations."

Psalms 89:1

salvation is initiated by Christ's death and resurrection, and completed by the individual's free will choice based on belief on Jesus Christ rather than belief in the Tooth Fairy or some other thing.

The Tooth Fairy? Wasn't That In The Dentist's Children Ministry?

The LORD Knocks

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20

And All God's Children Pray Open! Open! Open!

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17

The Thing About Faith

No Brag It's God's Gift

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

And Without Faith God Is Not Pleased

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6

Nor Are We Justified

"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." Galatians 2:16

But If We Believe

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

We Are His

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads." Revelation 22:3-4

Forever!

Believe And Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[tsth]

It is said around here that we are saved by our belief in Jesus Christ.

Historically it has been a contest of opinion between the Pelagians and the Augustinians.

THIS IS NOT THAT KIND OF THREAD.

In deference to my Pelagian/Arminian friends here, the question is presuppositional in that salvation is initiated by Christ's death and resurrection, and completed by the individual's free will choice based on belief on Jesus Christ rather than belief in the Tooth Fairy or some other thing.

I do not wish to entertain statements that essentially say that salvation is by religious sincerity, in that if we are nice enough people, or engage in all kinds of works and religious rites no matter which god we worship, then there are plenty of pathways to heaven.

THIS IS NOT THAT KIND OF THREAD.

In another thread running right now, there is the question of how the Protestants differ from the Roman Catholics. Naturally, the default all-inclusive PC statement is made that Christians reside in both camps. Let us posit that this is also true. As that thread matures, the differences between the two religions will grow. Some of these are trivial, others are deep and profound, and some have been replaced by Vatican II and other new RC directions along with redefinition of the doctrinal statements made by various non Roman Catholic denominations. (eg. how many Baptists still subscribe to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, or how man in the PCUSA remain faithful to the Westminster Confession?)

If Reuben Hick puts his faith in Santa Claus, then Reuben Hick won't be saved. If Reuben Hick renames Santa Claus to "Jesus" and keeps all of the same thoughts and opinions regarding this character, is Reuben Hick saved because he believes in the name of "Jesus" even though this "Jesus" is known by others as Santa Claus?

Likewise, many people have formed a template of who they want to worship. Often this template shares some common attributes with the Jesus Christ revealed in the Holy Scriptures. This invention may even be given to them by a preacher in a place called a Church. This invention may even be called "Jesus". If Reuben Hick is the preacher at this Church and preaches the Gospel of Santa Clause repackaged as "Jesus", will those who subscribe to Reuben Hick's Jesus be saved?

IOW, can a person be deceived into thinking that Santa Claus is Jesus, and because they are sincere in this belief in fabricated Jesus, that this belief is just as salvific as if they were told the true gospel and beleived in the true Jesus revealed in the Bible?

The question then can go in a couple of directions. Is sincere belief in a fraud lightly based on the revealed Jesus Christ just as saving as belief in the real deal? Afterall, many would claim that God looks into the heart of man, and some may say that the person who sincerely believes in a fraud may just as well have believed in the real Jesus if only the real Jesus was made available to him. Of course this is a hypothetical belief, not grounded in reality, but once again based on sincerity, even though the person is sincerely wrong.

The other direction is a bit more straightforward.

How much belief is necessary for salvation? For instance, it is pretty much given that a person who has just been exposed to the gospel while at the bus station will not have much knowledge of Christ, and if put to the test would probably get most of the test wrong if the questions were about our LORD's character and teachings. If all he got was "Jesus died for our sins" but thought that Jesus was a created being; a brother of Satan; never appeared in real human flesh; rose again spiritually, but not bodily; was not born of a virgin; was a demigod rather than a member of the Trinity; or any other traditionally considered heretical if not blasphemous beliefs, would that person be saved by his belief ?

How much error is acceptable? Can this same person saved at the busstop get hit by the next bus just seconds after saying the Sinner's Prayer and be in the arms of Jesus? If so, then isn't belief and faith merely sincerity in a token, cardboard cutout of Jesus, and its only because we might want to know Him better that any of us progress beyond the bus stop confession?

Mormons, JWs and a variety of other classically defined "cults", like Islam believe in Jesus. Members of the LDS have some interesting views regarding Jesus, but would not be considered by orthodox as to be genuine believers bound for heaven. Does any garden variety acknowledgment of Jesus, constitute saving faith?

I am grateful for this question Rueben. I think it is a very valid one.

I also think that the belief must be one that provokes the person to pursue Christ Jesus (through His Word). IOW, it must be a belief that inspires one to know Him more intimately. Just as one who falls in love, desires to know and be with that ONE who is desired, ALWAYS.

You cannot desire the Lord, and NOT DESIRE HIS WORD. HIS NAME IS THE WORD.

So, a belief that is not based upon desiring getting to know WHO that ONE is, is not a real belief.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' 24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

(See my signature line. That is the beginning!)

In His Love,

Suzanne

Edited April 7, 2008 by tsth

[tsth]

2 John

4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us.

5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Kansasdad]

I started a thread called God is Love that actually explored this same question. One of the questions I posted was this analogy. If you like red apples and I like red sweet round fruit that grows on trees is it possible that we like the same thing. Another poster stated that you needed to make Jesus your lord and master, and my question is what does that "look" like. Describe that for me. If you make that claim but the fruit doesn't match the description then I don't think you are eating apples, I think it is a different fruit. So How do you know if you have actually made Jesus your lord. Well describe it then compare. It is not the letters J E S U S that saves. It is not the knowledge of the stories in the bible that saves. It is the transformation of your heart, What is ruling your heart? Faith gets bantered around quite often, but what does faith really mean. Is Faith just a belief, is Faith just knowledge? Faith is the transformation of ones heart that will result in action. If those actions are not consistent with who Jesus is then do we really have faith or are we just paying lip service? Can we transform our own hearts or is this transformation from God? And as scripture tells us over and over and over again God is Love so what would be transforming our hearts. GOD? Ok describe God and make sure the description fits. It better look a lot like love.

God Bless,

K.D.

[Pilgrim7]

Scriptures warns us of 'another gospel', 'another spirit' and 'another christ'.

2co 11:4

For if he that comes

preaches

another

Jesus,

whom we have not preached, or

if you receive

another

spirit,

which you have

not received

(through our preaching),

or

another

gospel,

which you have not accepted

(from us),

you might well bear with him

Paul was afraid that they would receive them and believe them) .

Why did he fear this?

2co 11:19

For you

suffer

(allow, receive, put up with, believe)

fools

gladly,

seeing

you yourselves are

wise

(in your own eyes).

A young believer may not know much about Christ, but if led by the Holy Spirit will grow in knowledge of the truth and thus the true Christ and is saved by Christ.

It is a different thing for one to teach and preach another christ, one not in harmony with the totallity of Scripture, to ignore His plain teaching as though it doesn't matter what He said. This would then be a 'false Christ', a 'substitute christ', an 'imposter christ', an 'anti-christ', prompted by another spirit, the 'spirit of anti-christ'.

The answer is no, belief in this type of christ does not save. This belief in an 'anti-christ cannot save, but just the oposite will damn those who follow. I believe that we have been warned of this throughout the Bible.

[WayneB]

Scriptures warns us of 'another gospel', 'another spirit' and 'another christ'.

Exactly and as Suzanne pointed out, "You cannot desire the Lord, and NOT DESIRE HIS WORD. HIS NAME IS THE WORD."

There is but ONE Christ and He has revealed Himself to us through His Word because He is the Word.

When asked what the greatest commandment is, Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." Matthew 22:37

It isn't just an emotional experience with our heart but one that requires us to think with our mind and with both heart and mind, we will connect spiritutally and become one with Christ. If you do not have that experience then you do not know the true Christ.

[Openly Curious]

It is said around here that we are saved by our belief in Jesus Christ.

Historically it has been a contest of opinion between the Pelagians and the Augustinians.

THIS IS NOT THAT KIND OF THREAD.

In deference to my Pelagian/Arminian friends here, the question is presuppositional in that salvation is initiated by Christ's death and resurrection, and completed by the individual's free will choice based on belief on Jesus Christ rather than belief in the Tooth Fairy or some other thing.

I do not wish to entertain statements that essentially say that salvation is by religious sincerity, in that if we are nice enough people, or engage in all kinds of works and religious rites no matter which god we worship, then there are plenty of pathways to heaven.

THIS IS NOT THAT KIND OF THREAD.

In another thread running right now, there is the question of how the Protestants differ from the Roman Catholics. Naturally, the default all-inclusive PC statement is made that Christians reside in both camps. Let us posit that this is also true. As that thread matures, the differences between the two religions will grow. Some of these are trivial, others are deep and profound, and some have been replaced by Vatican II and other new RC directions along with redefinition of the doctrinal statements made by various non Roman Catholic denominations. (eg. how many Baptists still subscribe to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, or how man in the PCUSA remain faithful to the Westminster Confession?)

If Reuben Hick puts his faith in Santa Claus, then Reuben Hick won't be saved. If Reuben Hick renames Santa Claus to "Jesus" and keeps all of the same thoughts and opinions regarding this character, is Reuben Hick saved because he believes in the name of "Jesus" even though this "Jesus" is known by others as Santa Claus?

Likewise, many people have formed a template of who they want to worship. Often this template shares some common attributes with the Jesus Christ revealed in the Holy Scriptures. This invention may even be given to them by a preacher in a place called a Church. This invention may even be called "Jesus". If Reuben Hick is the preacher at this Church and preaches the Gospel of Santa Clause repackaged as "Jesus", will those who subscribe to Reuben Hick's Jesus be saved?

IOW, can a person be deceived into thinking that Santa Claus is Jesus, and because they are sincere in this belief in fabricated Jesus, that this belief is just as salvific as if they were told the true gospel and beleived in the true Jesus revealed in the Bible?

The question then can go in a couple of directions. Is sincere belief in a fraud lightly based on the revealed Jesus Christ just as saving as belief in the real deal? Afterall, many would claim that God looks into the heart of man, and some may say that the person who sincerely believes in a fraud may just as well have believed in the real Jesus if only the real Jesus was made available to him. Of course this is a hypothetical belief, not grounded in reality, but once again based on sincerity, even though the person is sincerely wrong.

The other direction is a bit more straightforward.

How much belief is necessary for salvation? For instance, it is pretty much given that a person who has just been exposed to the gospel while at the bus station will not have much knowledge of Christ, and if put to the test would probably get most of the test wrong if the questions were about our LORD's character and teachings. If all he got was "Jesus died for our sins" but thought that Jesus was a created being; a brother of Satan; never appeared in real human flesh; rose again spiritually, but not bodily; was not born of a virgin; was a demigod rather than a member of the Trinity; or any other traditionally considered heretical if not blasphemous beliefs, would that person be saved by his belief ?

How much error is acceptable? Can this same person saved at the busstop get hit by the next bus just seconds after saying the Sinner's Prayer and be in the arms of Jesus? If so, then isn't belief and faith merely sincerity in a token, cardboard cutout of Jesus, and its only because we might want to know Him better that any of us progress beyond the bus stop confession?

Mormons, JWs and a variety of other classically defined "cults", like Islam believe in Jesus. Members of the LDS have some interesting views regarding Jesus, but would not be considered by orthodox as to be genuine believers bound for heaven. Does any garden variety acknowledgment of Jesus, constitute saving faith?

You used a lot of words in this post to make your point but I will try to keep my reply down to a minimal. If I understand you correctly your main question revolves around how a person is saved by faith you are asking if it is important to really know Jesus. Or if a generic Jesus with similar teachings will do. According to Acts there is no other name other than Jesus through which we must be saved. That would mean that if a person"s god was named Santa Clause or Alah or Budda or anything other than Jesus even if they taught good things faith in them would not save you. Then there is the question of how much faith it requires in Jesus to be saved obviously it takes a different kind of faith that the devils have as the bible teaches they believe in Jesus and tremble at his name all the while being condemned to hell. The kind of faith it take to be saved is also not just a faith that a many by the name of Jesus lived and died this is what seperates true Christians from cultist. Cultist will often times acknowledge that Jesus Christ live and some will even acknowlege that he was a prophet yet they will reject his diety if a person believes Jesus is who he claimed to be, God in Carnate, and that he died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and that he rose again that is the kind of faith it takes to be saved. A person doesn't have to be an expert on biblical theology to be saved. It can be a person like the eunuch that Philip baptized or a Phraisee of pharisees taught at the feet of Gamileo who comes to Christ and they are both just as saved

OC

[MorningGlory]

You used a lot of words in this post to make your point but I will try to keep my reply down to a minimal. If I understand you correctly your main question revolves around how a person is saved by faith you are asking if it is important to really know Jesus. Or if a generic Jesus with similar teachings will do. According to Acts there is no other name other than Jesus through which we must be saved. That would mean that if a person"s god was named Santa Clause or Alah or Budda or anything other than Jesus even if they taught good things faith in them would not save you. Then there is the question of how much faith it requires in Jesus to be saved obviously it takes a different kind of faith that the devils have as the bible teaches they believe in Jesus and tremble at his name all the while being condemned to hell. The kind of faith it take to be saved is also not just a faith that a many by the name of Jesus lived and died this is what seperates true Christians from cultist. Cultist will often times acknowledge that Jesus Christ live and some will even acknowlege that he was a prophet yet they will reject his diety if a person believes Jesus is who he claimed to be, God in Carnate, and that he died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and that he rose again that is the kind of faith it takes to be saved. A person doesn't have to be an expert on biblical theology to be saved. It can be a person like the eunuch that Philip baptized or a Phraisee of pharisees taught at the feet of Gamileo who comes to Christ and they are both just as saved

OC

Yes, O.C., you nailed it! I agree that one doesn't have to be a theologian to know and worship the Lord. Some of that stuff gets SO complicated.....who needs that? I say "keep it real" and easy to understand for those of us who are still infants in our faith. But, all of you who are steeped in the Word and Bible scholars have my respect. I hope to know as much some day.