What About Belief?

[tsth]

I'm wondering though, what is the definition in the minds of others regarding works and obedience? Is it as some have said doing a good deed out of love for God and mankind or is it works that strive to show perfection to man and false piety to God, like the Pharisees. There is a fine line. Has it been defined in this thread?

I don't think it has been defined, and you're right, it should be!

I do want to state right off the bat, that I am not speaking of "good deeds", when talking about obedience or works. Although, sometimes, I think that in the flesh, we "think" that good deeds are what it's about. In regard to Christ Jesus, I am merely focusing on "doing what God has said", through His Word. That is what I am talking about. It's regarding His Word. You cannot say you believe in Jesus, without acknowledging His Word/Commands, to the point of obeying them. The final result may sometimes look like "good deeds", but that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about "obeying what God says".

That is what it's always about. And you can't know what God is saying, without His Word.

This comes to mind, as it's about putting God's Word (into practice) obeying. There are those as mentioned in the following, who claim to do all these things in Jesus' Name, yet are still practicing lawlessness(evildoers). But, Jesus tells them that the defining factor is believing unto practicing what you hear from His Word:

Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' 24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." 28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

Hebrews 11, is all about those who heard God's Word, and put it into practice! And just as I stated earlier:

What if:

Noah decided he would rather not do the work that God advised, but instead would just rather stand in agreement that God said he should build the ark?

Was it really faith?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[exrockstar]

I think I'm hearing you exrockstar...I don't think you are saying that deeds are not necessary but that they are not what gives us our eternal salvation. Work is as you stated regarding having faith in our parents and living by their guidelines and rules in hopes of pleasing them because we love and respect them. Not because it will make any difference regarding the fact that they are still our biological parents and nothing can change that.

I'm wondering though, what is the definition in the minds of others regarding works and obedience? Is it as some have said doing a good deed out of love for God and mankind or is it works that strive to show perfection to man and false piety to God, like the Pharisees. There is a fine line. Has it been defined in this thread?

i think some people here are saying that works and obedience are dependant on eternal salvation.

that is a huge debate. i just had to correct tsth OP about her using Heb 3 and 4 to support her point.

She can have her personal view but those Hebrew chapters talk about something different.

[jackie d]

I think I'm hearing you exrockstar...I don't think you are saying that deeds are not necessary but that they are not what gives us our eternal salvation. Work is as you stated regarding having faith in our parents and living by their guidelines and rules in hopes of pleasing them because we love and respect them. Not because it will make any difference regarding the fact that they are still our biological parents and nothing can change that.

I'm wondering though, what is the definition in the minds of others regarding works and obedience? Is it as some have said doing a good deed out of love for God and mankind or is it works that strive to show perfection to man and false piety to God, like the Pharisees. There is a fine line. Has it been defined in this thread?

i think some people here are saying that works and obedience are dependant on eternal salvation.

that is a huge debate. i just had to correct tsth OP about her using Heb 3 and 4 to support her point.

She can have her personal view but those Hebrew chapters talk about something different.

I agree that it is a huge debate. One I have unfortunately been involved in on both sides of the coin....the problem that I see with this debate is that if we leave out any aspect of the Doctrine of Salvation we no longer have the doctrine. It becomes soiled and confusing. And I agree it is belief in Him that saves us...as Paul stated, in the most simplistic manner describing salvation to man:

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This sums it up quite nicely. And as we all should know by now, this leads to the rest which is living by faith and obedience to God's Word.

[exrockstar]

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This sums it up quite nicely. And as we all should know by now, this leads to the rest which is living by faith and obedience to God's Word.

that pretty much works for me. keep it simple.

Step 1 then step 2.

[tsth]

But, that does not mean that we stop heeding the warnings given. They were given for a reason.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[exrockstar]

But, that does not mean that we stop heeding the warnings given. They were given for a reason.

In His Love,

Suzanne

of coarse not and that's what growth is about. I dont think anyone is arguing that.

i apologize for taking your thread to a different direction.

[deut31:12]

I'm wondering though, what is the definition in the minds of others regarding works and obedience? Is it as some have said doing a good deed out of love for God and mankind or is it works that strive to show perfection to man and false piety to God, like the Pharisees. There is a fine line. Has it been defined in this thread?

I don't think it has been defined, and you're right, it should be!

I do want to state right off the bat, that I am not speaking of "good deeds", when talking about obedience or works. Although, sometimes, I think that in the flesh, we "think" that good deeds are what it's about. In regard to Christ Jesus, I am merely focusing on "doing what God has said", through His Word. That is what I am talking about. It's regarding His Word. You cannot say you believe in Jesus, without acknowledging His Word/Commands, to the point of obeying them. The final result may sometimes look like "good deeds", but that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about "obeying what God says".

This is the whole answer in a nutshell. The definition of works is almost always defined as "good deeds". The definition of works is actually "doing the will of God".

The works that are defined for us in the bible are both good works and bad works.

These are the bad works -

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. - Galatians 5:19-21

These are the good works -

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23

The will of God is that we repent and abstain from the bad works and live by the good works. We show our professed faith by complying to these works. I.e. If I say that I am a Christian then I show it by not living in the above sins and at the same time showing through my life the fruits of the Spirit.

I agree with what James is saying in that if we profess to have faith and believe in God then let us show it by works, which is merely our obedience to the gospel of God and Christ.

Now, how this can be detrimental to our salvation is if I profess to believe, but still have not put away certain sins. I.e. If I forget or miss one sin before I die won't send me to hell, but if I die as an unrepented drunkard, fornicator, etc. I will not go to heaven and we have this scripture to back that up.

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. - Ephesians 5:3-6

"As becometh saints" means after we have become Christians.

The works that we do under our faith is in doing the will of God by repenting of these sins and keeping them out of our lives.

Now, the works themselves are not what saves us, but the lack of doing the works of repenting of these sins well take us to hell.

[jackie d]

But, that does not mean that we stop heeding the warnings given. They were given for a reason.

In His Love,

Suzanne

I don't think that there is any here that believes we should not heed warnings.

[tsth]

The works that are defined for us in the bible are both good works and bad works.

I agree, AND would say that there is SO MUCH in the Bible that we should be practicing. Not only because it's God's Will, but because it is GOOD for US!

If we heed the directions within Scripture, in regard to relationships, money, worship, family, marriage, and on and on and on, we would indeed see and taste that He is Good....and Good for us!!!

His ways are not our ways, (by nature), so, if we look into His ways, and start practicing them, we would indeed grow in our faith, because we would be exercising our belief, by doing what He Says in His Word, even though it didn't come natural to us to begin with. It is only thru Christ Jesus, and His Holy Spirit, that we are made able to walk in the ways/will of God. To do this, IS to believe, IS to obey, Is to love Him, IS to have faith. We cannot know how true HE IS, until we start believing and doing what He says in HIS WORD, and it goes WAY PAST "good deeds". It is a way of life. For us, and if you are parents.......for our families. We are identified by His Word, because this is what Jesus teaches us. We came to know that HE IS TRUTH, because THE WORD has already testified to this. When Jesus came and died on the cross for us, it was HIS WORD being proved true. (see signature line below)

His Name is THE WORD (Rev. 19:13)

We cannot say that we know Him, if we do not know HIS WORD, and believe HIS WORD unto obeying. (This is far more than good works!)

In His Love,

Suzanne

[deut31:12]

But, that does not mean that we stop heeding the warnings given. They were given for a reason.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Suzanne,

People don't want to hear that. It is easier to base all of Christianity on just a couple scriptures. I personally see where you are coming from, but denominationalism has watered down true Christianity so much that it has made most of the scriptures obsolete for our salvation. When know that all of the scriptures in the bible are for our salvation because we are told, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". (2Ti 3:16)

If all scripture is for these purposes then that means our instruction in righteousness stems out past Romans 10.

Even though we may become Christians, all of our past sins have been washed away from the blood of Christ, and our names are written in the book of life, we are still commanded to live the rest of our lives in accordance with the commandments laid out in the scriptures in the gospel of Christ or we forfeit the salvation promised to us. There are warnings all over the bible supporting this.

Has anybody ever read the Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt to Canaan in the Old Testament? God killed thousands of his own people for sins they committed. 23,000 were killed in one day for the sin of fornication. Today, God doesn't just kill his own people like in the Old Testament. He allows room for repentance and then will take our names out of the book of life if we don't repent.

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. - Revelation 22:19

Here we see that our names can be taken out of the book of life.

The would coincide to the scriptures that warn us that if we don't repent from our sins that we will not inherit the kingdom of God.