Wearing Pants on Vistiation (aka, Soulwinning)

[Guest man]

it amazes me why anybody would want to live under the rules of man,

I have a couple of exwives that would probably give you one of these...

[jackie d]

oops...I think I misunderstood one of the posts. If I offended please forgive me.

Get with the program Jackie.

I'm trying artsy...truly I am!!!!

oh woe is me...I'm never gonna fit in here Even if I do switch to skirts and overcoats!

[EricH]

You make several interesting points in this post, some that I agree with, and some I do not. What I do agree with you on is that there is only one correct meaning to any scripture. At the same time, when differen't people study and meditate on differen't passages, they often come up with differen't conclusions. That was even the case among men like Calvin, Luther and Wesley.

Every scripture has one meaning, but many applications. However, applications must be conditioned on the single meaning. The meaning is define as the thoughts the original author intended to convey

[Guest LadyC]

I think these are all very lame excuses. Have you stopped to consider that it wasnt until about the 1920s - and mainly in the war when women had to do the men's jobs - that women started wearing pants?

I don't know why your print is so large. Anyway, Actually it started in the Klondike Gold Rush about 1897.

Have you stopped to consider that for generations before that it was normal, established and expected for a woman to look like a woman and a man to look like a man? One way this was accomplished was by the striking difference in their clothing!

Now tell me how a modern woman with her trim fitting pants, blazer and crew cut hair is displaying her beauty and femininity?

Crew cut hair, not likely. Can a woman look feminine in pants, absolutely.

Don't you see that you are not exercising freedom but rather you are losing beauty. You are allowing the world to blur the lines of the sexes as God designed it.

Instead of instantly jumping on the "pants are modest too" bandwagon why don't you pause and listen to the other side?

I've been throught this many times already.

I know about cross -dressing.

Can you tell me if a man would wear pink capri pants?

Perhaps there really is truth to the fact that formfitting pants - which 80% of womens pants are - are not quite so modest after all. Perhaps there really is truth to the concept that skirts give a woman back her femininity. Perhaps there really is truth to the fact that skirts are modest - as they have been for the past centuries.

Women's pants are very different from mens. If you are a man and you don't believe me, go to sears and start trying on women's pants.

Perhaps there is truth to my belief that some things a woman is not meant to do.

Perhaps your belief is wrong and that you are not realizing cultural contexts.

Perhaps, no, actually, men didn't wear pants either in Jesus time.

The first man who wore pants, wasn't dressing like a man.

Do women need to cover their ankles?

Perhaps instead of making fun of someone for striving to be modest in our sex-soaked culture you should support her and encourage her.

ALL Christian women should strive to be modest.

Are those of us who don't feel like we're parading around in pants getting support from people like you? No, we're getting judgement.

So how about some support for those of us trying to maintain modesty huh?

Pot - kettle - black.

Perhaps whats really needed is for Christianity in North America to get back to some good old-fashioned Biblical modesty.

Already have it, thank you.

Maybe I need to provide pictures of myself in pants.

Perhaps what is needed is for those Christians to realize we are not the only culture on earth and in many many other cultures today the women dress modestly.

yes, like in Saudi arabia. Maybe we should cover our faces too?

Perhaps instead of using grace to have full liberty to do as we please we should consider the concept of grace restraining us to do what is right and good.

It's an issue of A) modesty (which we Christian women pant wearers care about) and B) cross-dressing - something which we Christian women care about.

excellent post artsylady.

i've got a few pages still to catch up on, but i'd like to say something to SMILES....

i'm highly offended by your comments that our REASONS, which are valid reasons by the way, for preferring pants, are "lame excuses". i'm even more offended by your accusation that we who wear pants are immodest and behaving unbiblically... i'd appreciate if you would quit looking down your nose at us and treating us as inferior.

so far, i haven't seen any of us pant-wearers being UNsupportive of a woman who chooses to wear dresses. we're simply defending our right NOT to dress according to your standards. and as long as we are not dressing in a manner that makes us look like men, our right to wear pants is just as biblically sound as your right to wear dresses.

women can look feminine and modest in both pants and in dresses. AND..... women can ALSO look UNfeminine and IMmodest in either.

[Openly Curious]

Perhaps the answer would be to make all women wear bhurkas.

....And dark sunglasses.

We need a new style maybe we'll start a whole new trend who knows?

OC

[Guest LadyC]

ok, so artsy made a comment based on her personal opinion. i think you misconstrued what she was trying to get across, but maybe i'm wrong. she certainly does not disapprove of women wearing a dress.

you made the comment *i* construe as meaning that women who wear pants are committing a sin of cross dressing, and you've made that one many times, although it is strictly a personal opinion you seem to hold, and is not biblical.

perhaps a little less unbiblical judgmentalism would be a good thing all the way around here.

[Openly Curious]

I don't like to exclude people from this post, but I REALLY dont' want it to turn into an argument/discussion about what is and is not modest, since we all obviously disagree heavily on the matter.

Now kittylover did you not really know it wouldn't stay on topic as even in your next quote you bring up the very matter you say you want to stay away from

However, here's the question, considering that the bible says that women are to adorn themselves in modest apparrel, and pants are immodest, what about a new Christian?

In the book of Peter the apostle Peter is using the outward adorning of a woman that we do everyday of our lives we get up fix our hair up brush our teeth put on our cloths after our shower and then head out for work or fix some breakfast for our kids and see them off to school.

But Peter is using the natural dressing of a woman to telling us how to dress our spiritual person on the inside of us as he mentions some of those natural things to show us the difference between the two "not with braided hair" and other thing then he gives us an example of spiritual dress "a meek and quiet spirit" God can use a meek an quiet spirit which is a meek (humble) spirit.

It never forbid woman from doing the things that were mentioned to the natural man as some come against braided hair and and all the other things mentioned in the epistles of Peter No one has the right to tell us what we should and shouldn't wear as God has told how to dress the better way. Now in saying that I don't think going around half naked or the such like because obviously they don't have a meek (humble} and quiet spririt before God as she has not dressed her self inside.

I mean.... we have rules for certain things that the lady or woman should be wearing something modest, and typically, that comes with conviction and she grows in the Lord. However, I've herad some people say that on visitation, no pants whatsoever, no matter who they are.

Here again people are looking at the outward instead of looking for a meek and quiet spirit which is to God of great price. The rules and regulations are excluding those who may be righteous but not allowed because they were judged by the church. I think a lesson or two in what is God's conviction than what one personally thinks is conviction. Sometimes pants is more modest than wearing a dress. I can take this a long way in many cases were it is not appropriate for a woman to wear a dress and God created this world for us to enjoy and many things would call for pants.

If you want to exclude those wearing pants then don't think it strange if they leave.

That's great and all, but I can't see telling a new Chrsitian that they have to wear a skirt or a dress when it is not yet a conviction in their life.

Nevertheless that is the rules and regulations of man whether they are young or old in the Lord.

These are my thoughts

OC

[Guest LadyC]

ok, so artsy made a comment based on her personal opinion. i think you misconstrued what she was trying to get across, but maybe i'm wrong. she certainly does not disapprove of women wearing a dress.

you made the comment *i* construe as meaning that women who wear pants are committing a sin of cross dressing, and you've made that one many times, although it is strictly a personal opinion you seem to hold, and is not biblical.

perhaps a little less unbiblical judgmentalism would be a good thing all the way around here.

The idea that women in pants is cross-dressing is a belief. The idea that all women who wear pants are unsaved or that all women who wear dresses are part of a cult is a judgement. There is a difference.

the belief is just as incorrect as the judgements.... unless of course the woman in pants is wearing those that are designed for men.

[Guest LadyC]

obviously, those who wear pants designed for the opposite sex ARE cross-dressing. and i'm talking about those that are designed, not just marketed, to specific genders. many jeans are marketed for men, but are designed gender-neutral. i used to wear wranglers and levis, back in the good old days when jeans were jeans and were simply marketed as jeans.... and in the days when i had outgrown my own jeans but not my husbands.

that being said, there are some jeans designed for specific genders. most women's jeans are now designed for women only, but not all men's jeans are designed for men only, and in fact, most aren't. slacks are very definitely designed according to gender.

as for the rest, your opinion, my opinion, whatever.... if your opinion is stating that a woman who wears pants designed for women is sinning, it is a JUDGEMENT. and an unbiblical one at that.

it's fine for you to hold your opinion, and i wouldn't try to convince you to give up your opinion, but let's be clear about what it is. a man's opinion, not a biblical mandate, not a sin. to refer to it as a sin or to imply that it is a biblical mandate, is an ungodly form of judgement against those who do not share your opinion.

[Guest LadyC]

butero, i can't believe you are going to try and derail a topic about pants by turning it into a discussion about tithing or any other doctrine. we have plenty of threads (now inactive) on tithing, but i suppose we could revisit the issue in one of the threads about it. i am not going to join you in derailing THIS one though.

i didn't look at the dresses in the linked photos, but i will say this... there ARE immodest dresses on the market, and we both are well aware of that simple fact. maybe the pics someone linked to were immodest, maybe they weren't. but if a woman is wearing a skirt that barely covers her butt cheeks, or one that has a neckline that plunges to the belly button, i think we'd all be in agreement that those are not modest. and i was one of the people that mentioned immodest dresses, but it's really not the issue we're discussing.

what we are discussing is pants. and accusing women who wear pants of committing a sin. since i wear jeans, i'm one of the accused, so it really doesn't matter to me that you think i was also sinning by wearing my husband's jeans when they were the only ones that fit me. he wears the same brand of levis that were once sold in men's and women's departments. they're gender neutral, but it was very obvious (in most cases) what gender the wearer was/is. THAT is not the same thing as wearing that which pertains to a man, which is what scripture condemns. so YOUR condemnation is simply that... your condemnation.

ya know, many sneakers and boots and even flip-flops, although they are marketed to men or to women, are gender neutral too. do you examine a person's shoes and judge them to be committing a sin if they don't meet your approval? or what about a woman who is wearing a t-shirt with her skirt.... do you accuse her of committing a sin because t-shirts can be worn by both men and women?

for that matter, would you condemn a man for wearing a t-shirt? how about that.... one could make the argument that any man who wears t-shirts and sneakers is cross dressing. LOL, i think i'll tell my husband that and see how he takes it. it suddenly occurred to me just how oppressive this whole attitude of yours is towards women in general. i already knew it wasn't a biblical perspective, but i suddenly realize just how deeply disturbing your accusations are.

and you weren't "sharing" your belief, you were pushing it on others by saying we're sinning. it is a false accusation. period. no matter how you slice it, it is baloney. i do not accept satan's condemnation in my life, nor will i accept YOUR condemnation in my life. there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. but there is conviction from the Holy Spirit. and the Holy Spirit may convict SOME women regarding wearing dresses only, but He doesn't convict ALL women to do so.