polygamist sect hearing in texas decends into farce

[anitarose]

Here's the thing that aggravates me. In order for Utah to become a state, the Mormons had to literally ban polygamy. They are all the same religion, with the exception of the polygamy issue.

Now here's my solution, and I've already sent the idea onto the White House. Utah is, in effect, violating their agreement with the government by allowing even the FLDS to commit polygamy (of course, I've heard of LDS families still doing it as well). This agreement could be termed a binding legal document, and in the violation of it, the terms can revert. Utah can revert to becoming a territory until the scourge of polygamy is stamped out permanently. The practitioners of the practice will fill our prisons because they are all sexual offenders and predators in the eyes of the law. It is time for Utahns to do something about this illegal and immoral practice. They are the only ones who can. After all, there were several states that, as a condition of becoming a state, had to ban the practice of slavery, and you don't hear of any slaves in any of those states. Why should Utah be any different?

I realize that there are good Mormons who post here as well, I would like to hear their input on this.

a.

It isn't just in Utah, however, or Texas. It is much more wide-spread than people realize. There is a large polygamist sect in what is known as the "Fredonia Strip" area of Northern Arizona, and I know there are others as well. This is the results that bad doctrine and cult programming bring.

Yes, but the fact remains that the practice of polygamy started in Utah, by an extreme Mormon sect. The fact that it has spread beyond the borders of Utah does nothing to change my mindset; the "State" of Utah refused to corral this problem, and now in my mind it has to pay for it by revoking its Statehood. I hate to see non-Mormons in Utah suffer for it, but they brought this on themselves.

Remember that this is a violation of federal law as well as a violation of a legal contract between the Territory of Utah, the Church of Latter-Day Saints and the Federal Government.

I will continue to campaign for this.

a.

I can't see cutting off all the inhabitants of Utah because of these sects. They would be without military defense, Utahoans wouldn't be able to draw Social Security, their public schools would be denied funds, etc. And the people of Utah wouldn't owe taxes to the federal government since they wouldn't be Americans. That would cost the feds a lot of money. And what about passports?

So you would allow these sects to continue molesting children and breaking the law, then? If the "State" of Utah had done their jobs, there wouldn't be polygamy to worry about. And I don't think they have anything to worry about with military defense or Social Security, as the citizens themselves would still be US citizens. It's the "State" that has a lot to worry about.

a.

[zaidenmom]

And what about the religious cover up for the old men who are pediphiles (sorry if I spelled that wrong)? The government is finally trying to protect the children. And we know what the Bible says about anyone who harms one of His children.

Warren Jeffs a prophet? a blasphmous pediphile, I think. Yikes, how could a mother give up her child to that? The Lord will have His way in this!!!

I'm sorry if I have upset anyone or come on too strong, but this is just wrong!!!

zaidenmom

[mrs]

I don't think you could prove that polygamy is just an extremist sect. Seems to me I remember learning that it was a Mormon thing itself and not just for ' radicals'.

Fact is these men are disgusting to do such things to poor young teenagers! It turns the stomach.

[tah]

I am very glad this all has been exposed and I do hope all who are guilty will be prosecuted ...

and that those who have been taught these terrible lies and know no truth will be shown "The Truth" and will be set free..

[Guest LadyC]

anitarose, the problem with your solution is though, that the polygamist marriages are not legal marriages. they have not been sanctioned by the state of utah, there are no marriage licenses filed with the state, that sort of thing. they perform illegal marriages within their commune. so while polygamy is a felony offense in utah, they have trouble prosecuting them on THOSE grounds because the law doesn't apply to polyamory, which is essentially what this is from a legal standpoint. (same goes for texas, or nevada, or any other state where they live...) and it's probably difficult to prove child molestation because nobody in the sect will talk.

we still have a number of flds members in vegas. the regular mormon population is very prevalent here, but sometimes you'll see the flds women in those strange dresses at the deseret thrift stores. their husbands dress differently too. you can really tell them apart from normal mormons. it's similar to seeing amish people. they really stand out.

for the record, i don't think there are many practicing mormons in texas apart from the flds sect. i think my entire life living in texas i never met more than three families, and they weren't polygamists. maybe there are more of them in other parts of the state than where i grew up or something.

[MorningGlory]

So you would allow these sects to continue molesting children and breaking the law, then? If the "State" of Utah had done their jobs, there wouldn't be polygamy to worry about. And I don't think they have anything to worry about with military defense or Social Security, as the citizens themselves would still be US citizens. It's the "State" that has a lot to worry about.

a.

No, anita, I wouldn't allow that; I'd put the mutants in prison. Using existing laws. But, as for kicking an American state out of the union, that's a bit of overkill. What of the millions who aren't even Mormon? What of the huge sects that are here in Texas? And in Colorado? Should we cut off these two states also? That's roughly forty million Americans right there. Where would you draw the line?

[anitarose]

So you would allow these sects to continue molesting children and breaking the law, then? If the "State" of Utah had done their jobs, there wouldn't be polygamy to worry about. And I don't think they have anything to worry about with military defense or Social Security, as the citizens themselves would still be US citizens. It's the "State" that has a lot to worry about.

a.

No, anita, I wouldn't allow that; I'd put the mutants in prison. Using existing laws. But, as for kicking an American state out of the union, that's a bit of overkill. What of the millions who aren't even Mormon? What of the huge sects that are here in Texas? And in Colorado? Should we cut off these two states also? That's roughly forty million Americans right there. Where would you draw the line?

Forgive me, Glory, but did you not read my other posts? The "State" of Utah is responsible for those forty million Americans that are breaking federal law. If they would have clamped down on polygamy when they were supposed to have, we wouldn't have the problem now. This has been going on for over 2 CENTURIES now. If the Territory of Utah and the Church of Latter Day Saints would have faced the problem before becoming a State, we wouldn't have this problem NOW. And because of that, the "State" of Utah has broken a legal binding contract with the Federal Government, as well as allowing an entire religion to break federal law for over 2 CENTURIES. I say go to the beginning and punish the ones who allowed it to happen in the first place---the "State" of Utah and the Church of Latter Day "Saints". And I don't want any mainstream Mormons telling me they aren't involved in it---they ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN. The FLDS is an offshoot of the Church of Latter Day "Saints", don't tell me they aren't---the only difference between the two is their belief in polygamy.

Put blame and punishment where it truly belongs.

a.

[Guest LadyC]

no, the state has not broken any contract or law, because the state did not issue the marriage licenses. if you'll scroll up you'll see the post i made... the state of utah doesn't sanction these marriages. they are not LEGAL marriages, therefore the state is not able to prosecute on grounds of polygamy, which is a felony under their laws.

[anitarose]

no, the state has not broken any contract or law, because the state did not issue the marriage licenses. if you'll scroll up you'll see the post i made... the state of utah doesn't sanction these marriages. they are not LEGAL marriages, therefore the state is not able to prosecute on grounds of polygamy, which is a felony under their laws.

I'm not referring to the marriage licenses, LadyC. I'm referring to the agreement that the Territory of Utah, the Church of Latter Day Saints and the Federal Government made in order for Utah to become a State, and that was that polygamy was outlawed as a practice. That was a legal and binding agreement, if you look it up in the history books. Because polygamy is still allowed to be practiced and the LDS church hasn't done anything about it (yes I know it's an extreme cult that's doing it, however the LDS church did have sway over the FLDS for a while), and even mainstream Mormons practice it (there's a few out there still doing it), it is a violation of both Federal law and the agreement made 2 centuries ago making Utah a State.

a.

[anitarose]

I suppose I should back up my assertions with a little history lesson...this piece of information is from the "State" of Utah's own website, in their history section (www.historytogo.utah.gov), dealing with their statehood...Note it's from the Utah History Encyclopedia.

Edward Leo Lyman

Utah History Encyclopedia

From the time the Mormon pioneers first arrived in Utah, a fervent goal of the vast majority of the region's residents was overcoming inferior territorial status by gaining statehood. Statehood was considered tantamount to independence in local affairs, with state officers chosen and answerable to the electorate, rather than where officials were outsiders appointed by outsiders, as was the case with territorial government. The first attempt at statehood in 1849-50 aimed to persuade Congress to admit the so-called state of Deseret, stretching from the Colorado Rockies to the Sierra Nevada Mountains. The nation's lawmakers, however, were not inclined to grant the Mormons control over such a vast domain, especially without the 60,000 eligible voters required for an area to be admitted as a state.

Undaunted, Mormon leaders sponsored a second attempt at statehood in 1856, sending Congress a draft of a constitution for a state much more limited in size. This occurred during the Republican party's first presidential campaign featuring a platform plank denouncing the "twin relics of barbarism," slavery and polygamy, the latter of which the Latter-day Saint leaders had recently acknowledged to be part of church doctrine and practice. Although some in the rival Democratic party initially encouraged the statehood effort, such cordiality was short-lived because reports of Mormon defiance of appointed officials in particular and the government in general soon prompted newly elected President James Buchanan to send United States Army troops to quell the presumed "Mormon Rebellion." Any hopes of statehood at the time were casualties of these developments. Similarly, a third effort in 1862 was not given serious consideration by a Congress then in the process of prohibiting plural marriage by federal statute.

When another movement for Utah's admission into the union was mounted in 1876 its sponsors essentially disregarded recent warnings from visiting federal executive and legislative leaders that statehood was not possible so long as plural marriage continued to be condoned and practiced in Utah. Similarly, most members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints placed their highest value on "following counsel," in virtually all matters relating to their church-centered lives. Thus they appeared to be in direct opposition to the long-standing American principle of the separation of church and state. Particularly after the anti-Mormon Liberal party was organized in 1870, there was much emphasis on church interference in politics as a major argument against granting Utah the measure of independence that statehood would bring. However, there is considerable evidence that this was something of a pretext for allowing the non-Mormon minority in the territory to continue to dominate political affairs through the Gentile-appointed officials who would rule until statehood arrived.

Amidst increasing hostility and bitterness between the Mormons and their opponents, the territorial legislature adopted a new tactic for an 1882 statehood attempt, demanding "a republican form of government" so that citizens in Utah could enjoy the blessings of liberty the founding fathers of the nation had sought to assure for all citizens. Although appropriate legislation was introduced in Congress on several occasions over the next year, all such bills were promptly pigeonholed. During the ensuing years, a so-called anti-polygamy "raid" escalated, with increasing prosecutions but no real submission from the Mormons.

Throughout the four-decade struggle, most of the legislation and law-enforcement activity inimical to Mormon interests had come from the Republican Party. But in the mid-1880s, with the coming of the Democratic Grover Cleveland administration, church leaders hoped at least for a more humane administration of the laws. And, in fact, Cleveland began to fill the Utah territorial positions with men committed to ease the long-prevailing tensions. More importantly, church emissaries succeeded in establishing an understanding with President Cleveland and some of his closest advisors, including Solicitor General George A. Jenks. In consultation with these party leaders, a sixth attempt at statehood was launched in 1887, which featured a constitutional clause prohibiting polygamy. The specific wording was drafted by Jenks, who also visited Utah in early July to oversee work behind the scenes.

Meanwhile, Mormon Church leaders also approved of the strategy. They essentially agreed that it was better to have anti-polygamy laws enforced by their own elected officials than to have continued enforcement by unsympathetic outside appointees. Thereafter, church leaders quietly assembled key Mormon delegates to the constitutional convention and urged them to go along with the prohibitions against polygamy. George Q. Cannon of the First Presidency of the church emphasized that they were engaged on "the most important political move since the church was organized." High church officials were equally emphatic that local Mormon leaders encourage voters to ratify the constitution when it was submitted for approval; and this ratification was accomplished by a large majority. If church interference in politics had been as much a concern to high Democratic leaders as some asserted, they certainly would not have continued cooperating and, in fact, encouraging such activity.

However, the statehood attempt ran into a Congress far less willing to cooperate with the Utah admission scheme unless Mormon leaders were willing to commit themselves more specifically against polygamy. Since church authorities refused such concessions at the time, this elaborate attempt at statehood met the same fate as its predecessors. Another casualty, in the long run, was the generally cordial relationship that had existed for many years between the church and the Democrats.

Because of the widespread opposition to Mormonism and polygamy, church leaders recognized the need for public-relations work with the nation's press--the most important opinion-molding institution of the day. Through an elaborate network of lobbyists, also engaged in protecting other interests, Mormon authorities authorized the expenditure of a least $144,000 in 1887 to help persuade key newspapers not to print negative items and, if possible, to publish positive ones. A substantial number of papers across the nation altered their editorial treatment of the church from what it had been at the beginning of the year.

Isaac Trumbo, a Californian with Latter-day Saint relatives, became the most important agent in the church lobbying effort, which gradually became closely connected with the Republican Party, then coming to power with the Benjamin Harrison administration. Trumbo was successful in enlisting some of the most influential of all Republicans in the cause of Utah statehood. James G. Blaine and James S. Clarkson represented a faction of the party which had recently become convinced that some of their more intolerant fellows had alienated the majority of voters in large areas through their stands against such practices as the use of alcoholic beverages, conducting school in non-English languages, and polygamy. These party leaders became committed to increased tolerance and cultural pluralism.

One of the developments pivotal in winning much Mormon gratitude and support, even though the Republican party had formerly been a major opponent, was Blaine's intervention to block passage of the Cullom-Struble Bill, which would have denied the vote even to non-polygamous Mormons, simply because of their beliefs. Part of the negotiations that led to that measure being tabled was an understanding that some change would soon be forthcoming on the church's stand regarding plural marriage. The so-called Woodruff Manifesto was announced some months later. Among other things, this announcement placed responsibility for the continued practice of polygamy on the individuals involved and maintained that the church would not advocate new plural marriages in defiance of the laws of the land. The church could no longer be regarded as standing in the way of Utah statehood.

After the issue of polygamy was addressed, the other major obstacle to Utah's admission was the bloc-voting tendencies of the Mormons. Friendly political advisors from both major parties advised that Utah would not be given statehood until normalization of political allegiances was achieved. Such normalization took place with amazing rapidity in 1891. The Mormon People's party was quietly disbanded, and church members were encouraged to join the recently organized Democrat and Republican parties in Utah. There was real effort expended to try to keep them about equal numerically, but the Republicans gained a slight advantage. This gave partisan advocate Clarkson his most persuasive argument to fellow party members in Congress, whose support was needed for Utah statehood. His overstated estimate was that the Mormon vote held the balance of power in perhaps eight or ten states. Promises of this potential, along with apparent promises to key individuals that Utah statehood would enhance railroad and other economic developments in the area, in which they were sure to be included, helped to garner the needed congressional support for Utah's admission into the Union as a state.

Statehood celebration, January 4, 1896

In the final struggles in Congress, it was the Democrats in the Senate Committee onTerritories who appeared hesitant to grant the long-sought goal. Recent Utah territorial elections had gone against them, and with the national legislature so closely balanced, they were reluctant to grant two new Senate seats to the rival party. In the final compromise allowing the Utah enabling act, passed in July 1894, it was stipulated that Utah not be admitted until after the current congressional term. Thus statehood did not arrive until 4 January 1896, after a half-century of struggle.

Note: It took 50 years before Utah became a State, and even in all that time, the Church of Latter Day Saints didn't want to give up their plural marriages. See where the agreement is? See why I am adamant that Utah and the LDS church be held accountable for what is going on today?

a.