polygamist sect hearing in texas decends into farce

[JustinM]

You have already convicted these people. That's the problem.

Kinda hard not to convict anyone when you see 12 and 13 year old children either pregnant or carrying babies. And I believe it's kinda obvious where they got them, and it ain't from the little boys in the compound.

a.

When there are no longer any Constitutional Rights to stand on, at least you will have your ideology.

I am not defending the people, just their 4th Amendment rights that were violated. It's a dangerous precedent that Texas just set, who next? Amish, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Pentecostals, Protestants, Lutherans, Catholics etc.?

[Ovedya]

You have already convicted these people. That's the problem.

Kinda hard not to convict anyone when you see 12 and 13 year old children either pregnant or carrying babies. And I believe it's kinda obvious where they got them, and it ain't from the little boys in the compound.

a.

When there are no longer any Constitutional Rights to stand on, at least you will have your ideology.

I am not defending the people, just their 4th Amendment rights that were violated. It's a dangerous precedent that Texas just set, who next? Amish, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Pentecostals, Protestants, Lutherans, Catholics etc.?

I'm curious to know how you find that their 4th Amendment Rights have been violated. Did they neglect to obtain a search warrant or something? Wouldn't the testimony of several women be considered reasonable cause?

[Rick-Parker]

All children smile and wave in front of cameras, it's very exciting for them, they don't know how to respond to all the changes in their lives.

As for your synopsis, it still sounds condescending.

quote brandon's popo: "I am focused on the rights and protection of the victims/children while he/you are focused of the rights and protection of the perpetrators/adults."

So, because they are parents/adults, they are perpetrators? Still don't get it?

I am talking about everyone's right. The kids, the adults, the 4th Amendment.

You have already convicted these people. That's the problem.

These children don't even know who their fathers really are. And, I do get it. You seem to be the one not to "get it." Children are being raped. 14 year old girls have babies. They are raped by adults. Which adults? I don't know. But those who are raping these children are perpatraters of crime and they will be exposed. In the mean time, let's protect the children. Which is more important in the short run, protecting children from possible/alledged abuse or being wrong about the presence of the abuse?

Even though I may say "you", this is not personal to me. I pray you at least understand that about my participation in this debate.

[His_Own]

Again, what about the rape victims? WHAT ABOUT THEM? Who is watching out for them?

Brandon's Popo,

...

YES, we are to protect the helpless! But there are SOOOO MANY ways to protect the helpless that do NOT violate rights. The sheriff had established a relationship with the leaders. They could have quietly asked to interview the young women, or quietly escorted them off the ranch, rather than terrifying the entire community - even the nation, with their actions. The call was NOT about child abuse, but about a man abusing his wife!! She was (had the call been real) 16 - so she was even legal age to marry!!

... The media helps by demonizing those whose rights have been violated. They make it extreme Black vs. White. You are either defending the children or defending "predators". They present the story so that there is no room to consider other viable, reasonable alternatives. They polarize the populace. And we tend to fall for it, time after time, after time. Just look at this thread! United we Stand; Divided we Fall.

PLEASE read the history of Germany before World War II. Those who desire to subdue a free people ALWAYS made up some highly emotional excuse that required them to violate the rights of a group they could demonize in order to "protect" someone or something. .... You are right to be emotional about this. Our very existence as a nation depends on how we respond to these cases. It MUST be in LOVE and in HIS Spirit and wisdom.

....May we see with His eyes and discern with His wisdom.

Dear Brandon's Popo,

1. Please look at the facts, not the allegations. Where is even one rape victim? They sent the women BACK to the ranch, so even the authorities do not believe that rapes are the issue. They have admitted there is NO child abuse among ANY of the boys, and NONE of the girls under 13. That leaves ONLY the girls who are currently 13-16 in question, and until just a few months ago, it would have meant ONLY the 13 year olds. Why are they not keeping only those who are in danger during their investigations? They are keeping ALL the children with NO evidence of ANY abuse - If it were not the "state" doing it, we would clearly call this kidnapping. So this story is not primarily about either rape or child abuse by the FLDS members. And there is no one on these boards that are defending either of them, so please stop accusing us of that. The issue is NOT about whether we should protect the helpless, but HOW.

I have seen only ONE former member of the FLDS church speak out. Even though she believes this is a cult and she is no longer a member, even she stated that they DID have a choice in who they married. And, Pear, I am not familiar with the 2 years difference, but I will stand corrected, if any one provides evidence of that.

2. This is exactly the type of scenario that those who want to destroy free societies do before take over. They pick a "fringe" group that can easily be demonized to violate their rights on the grounds that they are "protecting" someone of something that is highly emotional. Their goal is to divide. And we fall for it. Again, look at this thread, it is becoming increasingly divisive. PLEASE, let us STOP the divisiveness. We MUST learn to UNITE, even when our views are different; our survival as a nation depends upon it. It is His command.

Why can we not discuss HOW the helpless can be protected without destroying those who are innocent?

For instance, in most cases, even of rape, it is the one who is accused who is imprisoned, while the victims are allowed to continue, as much as possible, in their normal routines. Why did that not happen here? One possibility is for the children to safely stay with their mothers, as no one has produced evidence of any abuse by any of the mothers.

[His_Own]

His One, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I hear (understand) what you are saying. I guess we just have different priorities. My concern if for the children and their right not to be subjected to sexual abuse, psychological abuse, teen pregnancy and other horrors that take place within the FLDS cult. Yours, it reads to me, is the rights of the predictors' and co-conspirators' to privacy, freedom of "religion" and the right not to incriminate themselves.

Dear Brandon's Popo,

My concern is ALSO for the children. The authorities have already stated that there is NO abuse among ANY of the boys, and none of the young girls. That means, they have they have found no sexual abuse, no psychological abuse, no other horrors even take place in the FLDS cult. So why are are these children taken from homes that even the authorities admit have not been abusive to them and put into situations where sexual abuse, psychological abuse and other horrors are known to happen? Why did the "state" surrounded the ranch with armed federal agents, with armored vehicles, terrifying the very children that they say they are protecting???? Why is the state choosing to do things that they know will terrorize the children? Why not allow them to stay with their mothers? If there needs to be an investigation, why not detain the men, the ones they suspect to be the perpetrators, as they typically do? Following their normal procedure of detaining the suspects would be FAR more efficient, less expensive, less terrifying for the children.

NO ONE in this thread is defending predators. We differ only in HOW we go about defending the helpless.

Edited April 24, 2008 by His_Own

[JustinM]

You have already convicted these people. That's the problem.

Kinda hard not to convict anyone when you see 12 and 13 year old children either pregnant or carrying babies. And I believe it's kinda obvious where they got them, and it ain't from the little boys in the compound.

a.

When there are no longer any Constitutional Rights to stand on, at least you will have your ideology.

I am not defending the people, just their 4th Amendment rights that were violated. It's a dangerous precedent that Texas just set, who next? Amish, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Pentecostals, Protestants, Lutherans, Catholics etc.?

I'm curious to know how you find that their 4th Amendment Rights have been violated. Did they neglect to obtain a search warrant or something? Wouldn't the testimony of several women be considered reasonable cause?

They obtained a search warrant solely on the testimony of one anonymous caller, who turned out to be a phony. They didn't have the testimony of several women to rely on and the person that made the call was under no legal obligation (oath, affirmation) to tell the truth.

That is the main thing I have an issue with. Abuse of power, suspension of Constitutional Rights/Due Process.

The State could have sent an investigator into that community (overtly) and built a case, but they avoided the case building process and searched and seized every minor in that community. Why can't you see a problem with that? How long before Christians and Jews are rounded up into internment camps? I give it 10-15 years.

Many people in the country have failed to see significance of this police action. First it's the fringe Christians, then it's the fundamental Christians, then it's the "Far Right" and before you know it, it's all Christians.

Our religious liberty is in jeopardy and the government is growing and becoming bolder and more ruthless and are ignoring our Constitution, yet people applaud them.

Wag the dog.

[Rick-Parker]

Because the mothers are co-conspirators because they let the men take their children as wives at such a young age. Did you see the news report where they refused to answer or gave the old 'not to my knowledge' response when asked if polygamy was practiced there or if 13 and 14 yr. olds were being forced to marry. And we all know that to be true. We even know that they are forced to sew their own "wedding" dresses.

[Scarletprayers]

I have news for you Justin, DCS (Dept of Childrens Services) or what ever its called in your area, can, does and will, go in and take children on nothing but an anonymous tip, ALL the time. Except for the scale, they didn't do anything different than they do 1000's of times a day all across the country. This case only brings to light what has always been going on. They don't have to have facts, just assertions.

[Ovedya]

You have already convicted these people. That's the problem.

Kinda hard not to convict anyone when you see 12 and 13 year old children either pregnant or carrying babies. And I believe it's kinda obvious where they got them, and it ain't from the little boys in the compound.

a.

When there are no longer any Constitutional Rights to stand on, at least you will have your ideology.

I am not defending the people, just their 4th Amendment rights that were violated. It's a dangerous precedent that Texas just set, who next? Amish, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Pentecostals, Protestants, Lutherans, Catholics etc.?

I'm curious to know how you find that their 4th Amendment Rights have been violated. Did they neglect to obtain a search warrant or something? Wouldn't the testimony of several women be considered reasonable cause?

They obtained a search warrant solely on the testimony of one anonymous caller, who turned out to be a phony. They didn't have the testimony of several women to rely on and the person that made the call was under no legal obligation (oath, affirmation) to tell the truth.

That is the main thing I have an issue with. Abuse of power, suspension of Constitutional Rights/Due Process.

The State could have sent an investigator into that community (overtly) and built a case, but they avoided the case building process and searched and seized every minor in that community. Why can't you see a problem with that? How long before Christians and Jews are rounded up into internment camps? I give it 10-15 years.

Many people in the country have failed to see significance of this police action. First it's the fringe Christians, then it's the fundamental Christians, then it's the "Far Right" and before you know it, it's all Christians.

Our religious liberty is in jeopardy and the government is growing and becoming bolder and more ruthless and are ignoring our Constitution, yet people applaud them.

Wag the dog.

From what I read they had been building a case on this group for months, if not years. And with the conviction of this groups leader/prophet, I would say that they had already obtained ample evidence to obtain a search warrant. Also, from what I've read the phone call was suspected to be phony. Did they ever confirm that? There is also testimony from other women who left the group confirming the allegations of sexual abuse.

I think that you are creating a slippery slope situation here. This group has been ostracized by both the official LDS organization and Christianity in general. How do you make the leap from this situation and the eventual removal of rights from mainstream Christians. We know that the LDS organization itself is apart from orthodox Christianity, and yet they have not had their rights taken away, have they?

I think that you are panicking here.

[His_Own]

Edit: I am talking about the state having the right to remove the children from their questionable environment, not about whether the parents are guilty or not.

Brandon's Popo,

Thank you for your insight. I believe you have uncovered the root of the issue, or at least one of them.

It is an issue of HOW to protect, not WHETHER to protect.

Why do you (any one reading this thread) think that the "state" has, or should have the right to remove children?

Or, Why do you think they do not, or should not have that power?"

What constitutes a questionable environment? One phone call that was a hoax? Does that qualify? Why or why not?

Why not remove the accused rather than the victim?

What methods should be used in removing either the accused or the victim?

Does the "state" have a responsibility to not terrorize (abuse) those they say they are protecting?