The Gospels and Paul

[stacey c]

So if someone forgot a sin they committed five years ago and didn't repent Jesus is gonna say "Sorry dude you gotta go to hell for that one." Don't think so. Don't know about anyone else but I'll believe the Word and know it's all grace, grace, grace. Undeserved favor, it's not about anything I can or can't do it's all about Jesus and my faith in Him, and what He did for me. Jesus did it ALL on the cross, he doesn't need my works to finish the job.

[Guest]

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,

that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,

but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:39

If the scriptures these scriptures are talking about both then that contradicts the idea of believers only going before the Bema Seat. Also, we see here that the righteous are judged like the sinners for what they did in this life under the same things. What Jesus was doing was letting us know that there are things in our lives that we will be judged for that will determine if we go to heaven or hell. These verses prove that.

ok thanks. i was lost and now im found.

Oh This Is Terrible!

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Dear Brother Carlos, I Think You Could Have Posted, "OK! Thanks! I Was Found But Now I'm Lost!"

And You Would Have Nailed The "Good News" Some Folk Have Been Taught

The Lie That Jesus Did Not Really Do It When He Said "It Is Finished"

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. John 19:30

Or That The Lord Will Fail To Tend His Sheep

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. John 10:27-30

Dear Deut31:12

Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law: Deuteronomy 31:12

I Really Really Feel For The Crushing Burden Of Law Keeping For Salvation Retention Some Teacher Or Another Has You Under

They Did It To Me For A Short While But I Had God's Word So Deep Inside Me From Such A Young Age

And I Was Lead To Brothers So True To The Holy Bible And To God's Amazing Grace

That Finally I Was Able To Slip Those Wicked Bonds Of Condemnation

Now I Truly Trust In The Lord Jesus Christ My Lord My God

Trusting The Blood Shed for The Remission Of sins

Believing Because The B-I-B-L-E Tells Me So

And The Holy Spirit Of The Living God Too

The Lawman's Book

One Way To The Father

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

One Gift For Salvation

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

One Way To Please

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

One Walk

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

One Hope

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. Romans 15:13

One City

By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews 11:9-10

Trust The LORD Thy God With All Thy Heart And With All Thy Soul And With All Thy Mind And With All Thy Strength

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believe th in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

Set a watch, O LORD, before my mouth; keep the door of my lips. Psalms 141:3

[deut31:12]

What does "saved by grace through faith" and "not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph. 2:8, 9) mean to you?

Burn

It means that you base your entire understanding of Christianity on 2 verses.

To understand the "proper Biblical hermeneutics" of these two verses they need to be kept in their proper context. To do so you have to start in verse 1 and continue to verse 10.

[deut31:12]

So if someone forgot a sin they committed five years ago and didn't repent Jesus is gonna say "Sorry dude you gotta go to hell for that one." Don't think so. Don't know about anyone else but I'll believe the Word and know it's all grace, grace, grace. Undeserved favor, it's not about anything I can or can't do it's all about Jesus and my faith in Him, and what He did for me. Jesus did it ALL on the cross, he doesn't need my works to finish the job.

You miss the point. First off, one forgotten sin will not keep us out of hell. You are either assuming that is what I am saying or that is how you perceive it. What determines our righteousness and our unrighteousness before God is what our ENTIRE life shows forth. Do we purposely keep unrepented sin in our lives?

Second, they are NOT "my" works. Jesus' death on the cross reconciled us back to God and we have forgiveness of our sins through his blood, but that does not take away from the requirements given to us in following and obeying the words that Jesus gave us. I give this example one more time and you tell me if Jesus is requiring anything of mankind that determines whether heaven or hell.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? - Matthew 25:31-39

Here we see Jesus bringing all the world before him and separating them into two camps, sheep and goats. They were separated because the sheep did that which pleased him and the goats did not.

This is what happened to those, whom are called goats, who did not do what please Jesus -

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:45-46

Jesus did not tell them they can enter because they based Christianity on faith only. They entered in because of what they did. This is all because of their faith.

The righteous went into eternal life because scripture says, "He that doeth righteousness is righteous even as he is righteous". Do you notice that is says, "Doeth righteousness"?

The poster asked this question:

When reading through the Gospels, it seems clear that there is some sort of Works-Righteousness going on there. It's not until Paul (which was admittedly written before the Gospels) that we see Sola Fide language.

When you read and study books of the bible you will see that there is a lot more told to us to do than just Eph 2:8,9. Even the poster saw this and it is a great theme all over the New Testament that is coupled with faith. It is also a great misnomer to think that obeying the scriptures takes away from what Jesus did on the cross.

[exrockstar]

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,

that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,

but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:39

If the scriptures these scriptures are talking about both then that contradicts the idea of believers only going before the Bema Seat. Also, we see here that the righteous are judged like the sinners for what they did in this life under the same things. What Jesus was doing was letting us know that there are things in our lives that we will be judged for that will determine if we go to heaven or hell. These verses prove that.

ok thanks. i was lost and now im found.

Oh This Is Terrible!

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Dear Brother Carlos, I Think You Could Have Posted, "OK! Thanks! I Was Found But Now I'm Lost!"

And You Would Have Nailed The "Good News" Some Folk Have Been Taught

The Lie That Jesus Did Not Really Do It When He Said "It Is Finished"

i was just being sarcastic to him sir. i really oughtta stop

"Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

[deut31:12]

If the scriptures these scriptures are talking about both then that contradicts the idea of believers only going before the Bema Seat. Also, we see here that the righteous are judged like the sinners for what they did in this life under the same things. What Jesus was doing was letting us know that there are things in our lives that we will be judged for that will determine if we go to heaven or hell. These verses prove that.

ok thanks. i was lost and now im found.

No problem. I'm glad to hear it.

[deut31:12]

If the scriptures these scriptures are talking about both then that contradicts the idea of believers only going before the Bema Seat. Also, we see here that the righteous are judged like the sinners for what they did in this life under the same things. What Jesus was doing was letting us know that there are things in our lives that we will be judged for that will determine if we go to heaven or hell. These verses prove that.

Wait, wait I realize I'm just jumping in here, so maybe I missed something, but it sounds like you are saying even Christians will be judged by works/sins and could, in fact, go to hell. I just want this clarified before I go further. Thank you.

Read all of this and tell me what you think:

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:31-46

The righteous and unrighteous, sheep and goats, were judged together for what they did or didn't do. One went to eternal life and the to eternal punishment. You can't argue with that.

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. - Matthew 12:36-37

Now, if all we need is faith, then why are our words going to be judged on judgment day? This can't be just for the sinners because sinners won't be justified by their words on judgment day. The only people that will be justified on judgment day will be the righteous.

Now we can see that we are judged by what we do for Jesus through our brethren and that we will be judged by our words. What we do and say will either get us into life eternal/justify us or they will condemn us/everlasting punishment.

[stacey c]

Deut, I can see what you are saying, but let's look and understand that it is deeper than the sin. Sin is the result of a deeper problem. Someone who at one time walked the christian life and then turned from the Holy Spirit to live a lifetime of the flesh and of unrepented sin are those who have left their first love and lost their faith. It's the condition of the heart. One who is still inlove with their savior would not live that kind of life. Not saying we don't screw up once in awhile, that's why we can feel secure in His grace. But if I were to totally turn away from Him, His grace and mercy and my life turned to one of sin and rebellion, it's not my sin that's the problem, it's the state of my heart.

[deut31:12]

Deut, I can see what you are saying, but let's look and understand that it is deeper than the sin. Sin is the result of a deeper problem. Someone who at one time walked the christian life and then turned from the Holy Spirit to live a lifetime of the flesh and of unrepented sin are those who have left their first love and lost their faith. It's the condition of the heart. One who is still inlove with their savior would not live that kind of life. Not saying we don't screw up once in awhile, that's why we can feel secure in His grace. But if I were to totally turn away from Him, His grace and mercy and my life turned to one of sin and rebellion, it's not my sin that's the problem, it's the state of my heart.

I understand what you are saying and agree that we have the ability to walk away from Christianity to go back into the world of sin. I agree that a striving Christian has the grace of God, but when you look at these verses:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. - Galatians 5:19-21

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. - Ephesians 5:3-5

...you will see that the sins are named. Of course our heart is included, but the time for God to have each of these sins named gives it merit that it is our sin that does it, or is at least included. After our heart leaves the sin comes.

The good fight that Paul talked about is our fight within us, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, to keep away from these sins. God's grace is there if we happen to fall into one, but if I have these sins in my life unrepented then I will not make it to heaven. We know this because, "that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God".

It names that a whoremonger, unlcean person, covetous man, and an idolater will not inherit the kingdom of God. These are sins that are keeping people out.

[Xan]

"The righteous (those covered by God's grace) and unrighteous (those who rejected God's grace), sheep and goats, were judged together for what they did or didn't do. One went to eternal life and the to eternal punishment. You can't argue with that."

Nope, can't argue with that.

"...you will see that the sins are named."

No, the sins are not named, but the sinners are, and that is a huge distinction. Romans 3:10ff "There is no one righteous, not even one... All have turned away... there is no one who does good, not even one... Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law." Clearly, it is not by our works. Then how? Paul goes on. "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference....Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." What does that mean when Paul says we uphold the law by faith? Romans 6:2ff "We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore burried with Him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may have a new life. If we have been united with Him in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin may be rendered powerless that we should no longer be slaves to sin- because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.... Count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Jesus Christ... For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace."

How can I expound on the Word of God through Paul? It's beautiful. It's perfect. We are not sinners because we have died with Christ to our sinful nature and have the righteousness of God because He has raised us up in Him.

Edited May 24, 2008 by hellbunny