Is Jesus "God Almighty in the flesh" ?

[godrulz]

Many verses show that the Father, Son, Spirit are distinct in one sense. Jesus prayed to the Father, not Himself. Modalism/Sabellianism/Jesus Only reduces the personal distinctions in the Godhead to offices or modes that Jesus steps in to. The verses that talk about the Father and Son, etc. use the conjunction 'and'. The Father did not die on the cross, but the Son did. He will send another Comforter (Greek= of the same kind/allos; there is another word for another of a different kind/heteros).

Some of the verses in the above post emphasize the absolute unity within the Godhead (essence).

Is. 9:6 The weight of Scripture shows that the Father is not the Son, yet equal as to essence.

"Father" can be understood as 'founder' ...e.g. father of modern science. Jesus is the founder of the Church, etc.

'everlasting Father'= father of eternity= Jesus is eternal and possesses eternity. The Father is also eternal, but in this context it is not referring to the first person of the trinity. Other verses would preclude this possibility.

Footnote in I Chron. 1:10, 11, 13, 18,20 NIV (not literal father in geneology) Hebrew word study: father may mean ancestor or predecessor or founder.

I Chron. 2:24 Father may mean civic or military leader (Hebrew).

In other words, Father can be used in different senses.

I can be a father to my children and a son to my father. Calling me Father does not make me

my son.

I and the Father, the Father and I are one. This is more than one in purpose of will or person. It is an intimate unity, but still has a distinction. There are 2 subjects (I=Jesus and the Father) joined by a conjunction (kai).

[jamie]

Greetings Godman,

I would ask, and maybe challenge, how is the understanding of the Triunity of God essential for salvation? This idea (theology, really) has been floating around Christendom for centuries, and was actually originally introducted by the RC in response to the Arian heresy. But in my search of the Scriptures, I have not found one teaching that the understanding of the nature of God is essential to one's salvation.

Let's first look at a couple verses:

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Which of the trinity went to the cross?

Which of the trinity, during Jesus ministry, knew everything, even things which the Son did not know?

Which of the trinity is called the "paraclete" - the one who draws himself alongside of us?

I doubt if the thief on the cross knew the answers to each of these things, but he was quite the exception, and no doubt there remain "exceptions", but in the order of maturation of a Christian, he/she WILL learn these things. If they DO NOT learn these things in the process of "growing up in Christ", then I would question their salvation. These things are all "milk", fed to a baby Christian, until such time as they are ready to go on to more solid food. By the time they get to "solid food", they should KNOW these things, or else go back to the beginning and become a baby all over again. (tongue in cheek!)

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

I dare say that most believers today do not fully comprehend the meaning of the Trinity. At best we only have a few "close, but no cigar" descriptions. Even the most mature and knowledgable believers' understanding of the Triune nature of the godhead pales in comparison to the reality - which only our ultimate resurrection will reveal. So, at best, what we have is man's frail description of the boundless and exaustless revelation of the Scriptures. This will have to suffice until the Lord returns. But I don't believe man's definition is the measure of one's salvation.

This was the problem to begin with: That the man-made definitions, doctrines, or teachings of the (Roman) church "fathers" has become the measure by which we judge a person's salvation.

I agree with you God-man.

I keep my mouth shut on this one, this topic makes people vicious if theres any opposition. :x:

[Guest tiggr]

First no where in the Bible is God called a triune God or is the word trinity found those words were not used to describe God until tyhe begining of the RC.

Now could it be that the Lord God almighty id the Father of all things and that He manifested Himself in the flesh as Jesus Christ in order to redeem His creation (humanity) and that once the resurrection was complete He manifest Himself as the Holy Ghost as the comforter to the church and His people?

To believe in three separate or distinct individuals of God is not a belief of one God but of three.

Also how can they be co equal/ co eternal if the Bible says

Heb 5:5

but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

KJV

this plainly shows us that Jesus was created on a specific day

[BobTriez]

First no where in the Bible is God called a triune God or is the word trinity found those words were not used to describe God until tyhe begining of the RC.

Now could it be that the Lord God almighty id the Father of all things and that He manifested Himself in the flesh as Jesus Christ in order to redeem His creation (humanity) and that once the resurrection was complete He manifest Himself as the Holy Ghost as the comforter to the church and His people?

To believe in three separate or distinct individuals of God is not a belief of one God but of three.

Also how can they be co equal/ co eternal if the Bible says 

Heb 5:5

but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

KJV

this plainly shows us that Jesus was created on a specific day

First no where in the Bible is God called a triune God or is the word trinity found those words were not used to describe God until the beginning of the RC.

No, it's [ the word trinity ] not found in the Bible. It is a term that we have used to describe something undescribable. God is mysterious and exists in a dimension outside of human understanding. How is God three yet one ? I don't know...what I do know however, is that God is capable of doing things beyond my understanding. If we believe that God is omnipresent, why do some folks have such a hard time believing He is capable of being three persons, yet only one God ?

Now could it be that the Lord God almighty id the Father of all things and that He manifested Himself in the flesh as Jesus Christ in order to redeem His creation (humanity) and that once the resurrection was complete He manifest Himself as the Holy Ghost as the comforter to the church and His people?

It goes further than that. All three persons have existed in all of eternity, without beginning.

To believe in three separate or distinct individuals of God is not a belief of one God but of three

No it is not. God Himself has said many times throughout the Bible that there is only one God and no Bible believing Christian will say they believe in three Gods....there is only one.

To believe in three separate or distinct individuals of God is not a belief of one God but of three.

Also how can they be co equal/ co eternal if the Bible says 

Heb 5:5

but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

KJV

this plainly shows us that Jesus was created on a specific day

Jesus was not created! He is the creator of all things ( Colossians 1:15-20 ) - if He is the creator, how can He also be created ?

Many seem to look at Jesus the man and ignore Jesus being God. Was He subordinate to the Father ? In a sense, yes...but there is a reason why. Jesus humbled Himself and left His throne to become like one of us. In order for Him to be fully man and reach us at a level that we can understand, He gave up some of His divine attributes...not because He had to, but because He wanted to....In His intense love for mankind, he stepped out of eternity and became just like us, so that we could understand Him....that does not mean that Jesus was not God for any length of time while on Earth; it simply means that out of love, He chose to become as His creatures so He could lead us back home.

In His service,

Bob

[Guest tiggr]

THen you go directly against scriptures because as I showed you the Bible says in Heb 5:5

but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

KJV

Begotten to beget, to procreate,regenerate, sole one and only, first born

I'm sorry to say but Jesus can not be co eternal according to the definition gievn in Strong's Hebrew/Greek dictionary. Hebrew 5:5 shows that He was brought into existance on a certain day

If we believe that God is omnipresent, why do some folks have such a hard time believing He is capable of being three persons, yet only one God ?

I dont understand why people cant understand that one means one not three. One God three manifestations not persons.

Jesus was more than just a man he was God manifested in the flesh

1 Tim 3:16

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

This explains the mystery to us right here

Was He subordinate to the Father ? In a sense, yes

You have just contradicted what most people say about the trinity because if Jesus is subordinate in any sense then He is NOT co equal.

[godrulz]

We are subordinate positionally to the President of the United States. He has a different role, function, authority. The Spirit is the servant of the Godhead. Jesus humbled himself and was positionally lower than even the angels for a time. Hebrews says He is better than the angels (nature), but positionally lower as a man. The Father was greater positionally while Jesus was on earth (it does not say he was better by nature= different Gk. word).

We are not inferior to the President in our humanity. We are equal as to human nature. He is greater, not better than us.

Heb. 5:5 deals with Jesus the High Priest (humanity, not Deity). NIV "So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father." (Ps. 2:7) v.7 during the days of Jesus' life on earth...

This verse is not a proof text for the creation of Jesus. The context is His offices, not His preexistent relationship with the Father. Trinitarians have never found it to contradict the many other verses that show the equality of the Father and the Word. The Father called Him to be King and Priest (the Messiah). He is the Word (Jn. 1:1). Heb. 1:3 ?the today referred to...after the ascension...when He resumed His place at the right hand of the Father (which implies equality, as does the phrase Son...the Jews understood a claim to be the Son of God as making oneself equal with God= blasphemy

Jn. 5:30,33 'I and the Father are one'...you a mere man claim to be God...the Jews understood what Jesus, the Jew was claiming. cf. Jn. 20:28 Jesus received the worship and did not rebuke Thomas.

He was co-essential, co-equal with the Father from eternity...in relation to His incarnation and humanity there is a positional difference...Phil. 2 nature of God and nature of a servant (without losing divine nature).

[BobTriez]

THen you go directly against scriptures because as I showed you the Bible says in Heb 5:5

but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

KJV

Begotten to beget, to procreate,regenerate, sole one and only, first born

I'm sorry to say but Jesus can not be co eternal according to the definition gievn in Strong's Hebrew/Greek dictionary. Hebrew 5:5 shows that He was brought into existance on a certain day

If we believe that God is omnipresent, why do some folks have such a hard time believing He is capable of being three persons, yet only one God ?

I dont understand why people cant understand that one means one not three. One God three manifestations not persons.

Jesus was more than just a man he was God manifested in the flesh

1 Tim 3:16

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

This explains the mystery to us right here

Was He subordinate to the Father ? In a sense, yes

You have just contradicted what most people say about the trinity because if Jesus is subordinate in any sense then He is NOT co equal.

You are one tough audience! I will, however explain my positions and defend them with scripture. We'll start at the beginning....

THen you go directly against scriptures because as I showed you the Bible says in Heb 5:5

but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

The problem here, is that you are not reading this verse in context at all. Let's show the entire context of this verse:

Hebrews 5:1-10

1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Or in the NIV -

Hebrews 5:1-10

1Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.

4No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. 5So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father. 6And he says in another place, "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

What we see here is all about submission. That was the life of Jesus while here on Earth and that is the mission He taught. As I stated earlier, Jesus voluntarily became a servant and on His own will, took on humility by becoming a human.

Philippians 2:5-8

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death--even death on a cross!

In the sense that He was born of a human and becoming a human, one could argue that He was created or made. Further study and research into the matter will reveal that there is much more to Him than His life on Earth, death, subsequent resurrection, ascension and impending return. Jesus left no uncertainty to His deity and the Jews understood this quite well; and this claim ultimately led to His crucifixion ( that was the charge made - blasphemy ).

One must accept one of two paths - either Jesus was who He said and claimed to be, or He was a liar. If the first is true, the second is false....and if the second is true, by the very nature of God, the fist could never be true and our faith is in vain.

Remember, your argument is not with me, it's with Jesus Himself! He's the One who claimed to be God.....it's not up to me to prove what is true, rather the burden is on you to prove Jesus wrong and state that He is in fact a liar.

Your second point -

If we believe that God is omnipresent, why do some folks have such a hard time believing He is capable of being three persons, yet only one God ?

I dont understand why people can't understand that one means one not three. One God three manifestations not persons.

Jesus was more than just a man he was God manifested in the flesh

1 Tim 3:16

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

This explains the mystery to us right here

No argument here, so I'm not sure what response you want from that one - you supported my statement quite well actually.

Your third point

Was He subordinate to the Father ? In a sense, yes

You have just contradicted what most people say about the trinity because if Jesus is subordinate in any sense then He is NOT co equal.

You didn't really read what I said....your heard, but didn't listen. There was never a point in time that Jesus was not God....He's always been God and always will be God ( John 1:1 ). In verse two we read He was with God in the beginning....well, since God has no beginning, that would mean He has always been - correct ? And being eternal is a divine attribute. There is nothing else that has always been and always will be except for God.

What I mean was as stated above in Phillipians 2. Jesus emptied Himself and took on human limitations...that was part of becoming truly man. That in no way means that Jesus at any time ceased to be God. It simply means that in every sense of the term, Jesus was 100 % man. And in order to humble Himself, the creator took on flesh of the creature and accepted the fact that humans being created a little lower than the angels, indeed have limitations. Jesus could not have made the atonement for sin without entering our race; and as I've said over and over, our race has it's limitations. Jesus still retained His deity and remained 100 % God .

God can not cease to be God - that's a universal given; does that mean that God is limited ? Like the favourite old question posed by the atheist asks - "Can God create a rock so big that He can't move it". Such a question at face value would appear to take omnipotence away from God, either way one answers it. But if you look at the question in a different dimension, it does no such thing. If God created a rock so big that He couldn't move it, then in all effect, one is asking if God can do something to make Him cease to be God. God can not cease to be God. So in answer to that question, it's "No, God can not create a rock so big He can't move it"....Why ? Because God can't cease to be God....does that make Him any less God or put a limitation on Him ? Not at all! God also is incapable of lying; does that reduce his all encompassing abilities ? Of course not.

Sorry to be so long winded, but I hope I've answered to your satisfaction...if not, take it up with Jesus because He's the One you have the disagreement with....right ?

In His service,

Bob

[BobTriez]

We are subordinate positionally to the President of the United States. He has a different role, function, authority. The Spirit is the servant of the Godhead. Jesus humbled himself and was positionally lower than even the angels for a time. Hebrews says He is better than the angels (nature), but positionally lower as a man. The Father was greater positionally while Jesus was on earth (it does not say he was better by nature= different Gk. word).

We are not inferior to the President in our humanity. We are equal as to human nature. He is greater, not better than us.

Heb. 5:5 deals with Jesus the High Priest (humanity, not Deity). NIV "So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father." (Ps. 2:7) v.7 during the days of Jesus' life on earth...

This verse is not a proof text for the creation of Jesus. The context is His offices, not His preexistent relationship with the Father. Trinitarians have never found it to contradict the many other verses that show the equality of the Father and the Word. The Father called Him to be King and Priest (the Messiah). He is the Word (Jn. 1:1). Heb. 1:3 ?the today referred to...after the ascension...when He resumed His place at the right hand of the Father (which implies equality, as does the phrase Son...the Jews understood a claim to be the Son of God as making oneself equal with God= blasphemy

Jn. 5:30,33 'I and the Father are one'...you a mere man claim to be God...the Jews understood what Jesus, the Jew was claiming. cf. Jn. 20:28 Jesus received the worship and did not rebuke Thomas.

He was co-essential, co-equal with the Father from eternity...in relation to His incarnation and humanity there is a positional difference...Phil. 2 nature of God and nature of a servant (without losing divine nature).

After posting my somewhat long-winded post, I read your's....seems we said just about the same thing ....you just kept it short

In His service,

Bob

[Guest tiggr]

No I'm sorry but I do not have a disagreement with Jesus. On the contrary I believe that Jesus Is the one and only God manifested in the flesh. the human body was begotten on a certain day as the Bible says and in this body dwells the fulness of the Godhead. This body was created so that it could be the perfect sacrifice for the sins of His creation for as the Bible states God is a spirit. The Spirit of God could not be crucufied and cant not die so He was manifested in the flesh seen of angels and preached to the gentiles. "One God and father of all who is above all and through all and in you all"

[BobTriez]

No I'm sorry but I do not have a disagreement with Jesus. On the contrary I believe that Jesus Is the one and only God manifested in the flesh. the human body was begotten on a certain day as the Bible says and in this body dwells the fulness of the Godhead. This body was created so that it could be the perfect sacrifice for the sins of His creation for as the Bible states God is a spirit. The Spirit of God could not be crucufied and cant not die so He was manifested in the flesh seen of angels and preached to the gentiles. "One God and father of all who is above all and through all and in you all"

Actually, Jesus did die in body and in spirit. He had to in order to pay the price of sin in our place...it was the only way....death is not the cessation of existence as many perceive it to be. Physical death is the separation of body and spirit ( no cessation of existence there ) and spiritual death is being separated from God in spirit - still, no cessation of existence, although one will wish he/she could cease to exist once in this condition. Jesus, being 100 % man endured both, and here's the mysterious part - He also experienced it while never giving up 100 % deity.

I guess I would ask you this - do you believe that Jesus has always been, or was He created ? If you agree He's always been, is the creator of everything and is indeed the Great I AM, we're in agreement....if you say He was created to perform a purpose ( be a sacrifice ) at a specific point in time, we need to talk some more.

In His service,

Bob