Trinity

[WayneB]

Russell,

Brother, the Deity of Jesus Christ is firmly established throughout Scripture. He is the Son of God and He is God...the Scriptures are clear. Our failure to grasp the fullness or character of the God-head does not change the fact that it exists in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We can discuss that later but for now, let's focus on your specific question. Is Jesus the Son of God or God the Son or both? The answer is both and Paul in his letter to the Colossians clearly states that.

Paul clearly stated the Truth...leaving NO questions as to the True identity of Jesus Christ. He wrote ---

Colossians 1

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Paul also gave all of us some good advice, a warning, when he wrote ----

Colossians 2

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

Paul clearly stated the Jesus was God and not just the Son of God.

Do not be deceived. Jesus claimed His deity when He simply said that He was "I AM". [John 8:58] Furthermore, he revealed Himself in His Revelation to John when He said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." [Revelation 1:8]

Russell, what more do you need? Do not be deceived!

I pray the Holy Spirit reveals to you the Truth because it does matter.

Bless you,

Wayne

[Russell]

Russell,

Brother, the Deity of Jesus Christ is firmly established throughout Scripture.  He is the Son of God and He is God...the Scriptures are clear.  Our failure to grasp the fullness or character of the God-head does not change the fact that it exists in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  We can discuss that later but for now, let's focus on your specific question.  Is Jesus the Son of God or God the Son or both?  The answer is both and Paul in his letter to the Colossians clearly states that.

Paul clearly stated the Truth...leaving NO questions as to the True identity of Jesus Christ.  He wrote ---

Colossians 1

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Paul also gave all of us some good advice, a warning, when he wrote ----

Colossians 2

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

Paul clearly stated the Jesus was God and not just the Son of God. 

Do not be deceived.  Jesus claimed His deity when He simply said that He was "I AM". [John 8:58]  Furthermore, he revealed Himself in His Revelation to John when He said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." [Revelation 1:8]

Russell, what more do you need?  Do not be deceived!

I pray the Holy Spirit reveals to you the Truth because it does matter. 

Bless you,

Wayne

Thanks Wayne,

I am considering these words and others that have responded. Can I get you to reply to the previous post in regards to the origins of the Trinity doctrine and why this theme is not apparent in the Old testament.

Thanks

[Guest Katatonic Bliss]

Look, this is really simple:

If Jesus was GOD, then why did he ask for GOD's Forgiveness in Luke 23:34? Please visit How can Jesus be GOD Almighty when he asked for GOD's Forgiveness?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 10:18 Jesus said

[Leonard]

Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Allforthelordjesus:

You cite the Scripture where God says Moses could not see His face and live, but you ignore the Scripture sometime later which says "God spoke with Moses just as a man speaks with his friend, even face to face...."

Russell: The Scripture did NOT say 'the earth (or even the world) was made subject to vanity' but rather 'the creation'. If Christ is created, then He too is subjected to vanity and His death has no more meaning than the death of a skid row wino who freezes to death in the Denver winter.

With a blessing,

Leonard, a sinner

[Leonard]

Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

A couple of years ago, I published an article on the development of the doctrine of the Trinity. VERY briefly I will put the pith of it in this post.

Since the Scriptures repeatedly say there is one God, and nowhere directly say God is eternally existent as three persons, how did the Church come to believe in the Trinity? Even the most casual reading of the earliest Church Fathers will show these were men who took the Scriptures extremely seriously, and were not going to invent a new doctrine out of whole cloth.

It was through very careful and detailed Scripture study the doctrine of the Trinity developed.

First off, let us not confuse the concept of Personality with the concept of corporeality. Corporeality (the state of having a body) is not the same. The attributes of Personality are mind, will, emotion, and activity.

Given the above, there are many Scripture passages to demonstrate clearly that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost each possess mind, will, emotion and activity (I won't reproduce all the Scriptures here; a little hunt through Strong's Concordance will suffice for the curious!). Therefore by definition, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost ARE ALL PERSONS. Each is spoken of as God (the Greek speaking Jews even called Jesus 'Kurios'--the word they used to replace the name 'Yahweh' when speaking Greek), ergo they are Divine Personages.

The Modalist heresy argued that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost were simply 'modes' in which God existed at different times, and that God was only one of them at a time. So in order to prove that each of the Divine Persons are indeed self existent, and ever God, we need to see if ALL three are ever active at the same time. And of course, once again the Scritpure is clear: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are all active in the believer's life AT THE SAME TIME, doing different things. Again, I shall not reproduce all the Scriptures here, but the Father BLESSES the believer's life, the Son INTERCEDES to the Father, and the Holy Ghost SANCTIFIES the believer, all at the same time.

Given the above, the Bible student arrives ineluctably at a Trinitarian conclusion.

With a blessing,

Leonard, a sinner

[other one]

I have a suggestion..... no a request. We all agree that there is three. The Father, The Son and The Spirit. I think that this entire subject would be a lot less confusing if we describe (God) when we use it. This is what is confusing to me, for when you use the word you may be referring to one or all of the three. That is only correct if you are predisposed that they are one and the same, which some on us do not believe. So, we take this conversation around and around for we are having a discussion and using the same word to mean different things. My request is to define the word "God" when you use it so I don't get confused as to what you are talking about.

I do believe that Jesus is the "I AM" of the old testament. He is not the Father nor equal to the father or He would not be subject to the Father as I stated in a previous post. The people of the old testament were not aware of the Father for they only saw the image of the Father through "I AM" Thus the plural form of the words that describe what we are calling (God)

That is what Jesus was is telling us, that Jesus has made it possible for us (mortal human beings) to have access to the Father (through the Spirit) if we accept Jesus as the begotten Son of the Father, which is something that did not exist in the days prior to the cross.

The three are our Godhead but not equal. I can blaspheme the Father and the Son and receive forgiveness, but not the Spirit. After the kingdom is firmly established and Lucifer and his followers are disposed of then; Jesus (the Son) will be subject to the Father. They are still different and not equal.

I don't see this as a part of salvation outside believing that Christ is the actual Son of the Father (born of a virgin); this we must believe.

I hope some of us are not saying that we must take the generalized definition of the Trinity to attain salvation........

Sam

[Russell]

I have a suggestion.....  no a request.  We all agree that there is three.  The Father, The Son and The Spirit.  I think that this entire subject would be a lot less confusing if we describe (God) when we use it.  This is what is confusing to me, for when you use the word you may be referring to one or all of the three.  That is only correct if you are predisposed that they are one and the same, which some on us do not believe.  So, we take this conversation around and around for we are having a discussion and using the same word to mean different things.  My request is to define the word "God" when you use it so I don't get confused as to what you are talking about.

I do believe that Jesus is the "I AM" of the old testament.  He is not the Father nor equal to the father or He would not be subject to the Father as I stated in a previous post.  The people of the old testament were not aware of the Father for they only saw the image of the Father through "I AM"  Thus the plural form of the words that describe what we are calling (God)

That is what Jesus was is telling us, that Jesus has made it possible for us (mortal human beings) to have access to the Father (through the Spirit) if we accept Jesus as the begotten Son of the Father, which is something that did not exist in the days prior to the cross.

The three are our Godhead but not equal.  I can blaspheme the Father and the Son and receive forgiveness, but not the Spirit.  After the kingdom is firmly established and Lucifer and his followers are disposed of then; Jesus (the Son) will be subject to the Father.  They are still different and not equal.

I don't see this as a part of salvation outside believing that Christ is the actual Son of the Father (born of a virgin); this we must believe. 

I hope some of us are not saying that we must take the generalized definition of the Trinity to attain salvation........

Sam

So if we follow this line of thinking thru Sam, than Jesus is YHWH of the Old Testament. So what is His Fathers Name?

[Guest Katatonic Bliss]

Peace all!

you know, all you Trinitarians would be better off refuting my questions I just posted. They prove my stance. along with the previously posted article refuting John 1:1.

MY OPEN CHALLENGE:

I challenge anyone to prove to me that Jesus is God. If they can do it I will become a Christian on the spot.

Peace,

~KB

[other one]

So if we follow this line of thinking thru Sam, than Jesus is YHWH of the Old Testament. So what is His Fathers Name?

This is something I really have not considered:

When Moses asked "I AM" who he sould tell the people who was sending him "I Am" told him two things:

"I AM" told Moses to tell the people that "I AM" sent you.

In the very next sentence He further said to tell them that "The Lord", the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob has sent me to you. And fruther this is my name forever.

Remember that Moses and 74 others with him saw the God of Israel and Jesus says that no man has seen the Father; so they can not be the same.

I am reading this out of the origional NASB. the sentence structure in the KJV makes it hard to seperate Lord and God.

So, as I see it, whatever the Hebrew word for "I AM" is the name of the diety that Jesus was before he was made flesh, and the Hebrew word for "The Lord" is the name of the Father. Different reference books give different words from what I have seen posted here on the board, so I would have to study a bit more to be sure.

My strongs that is geared to the KJV says:

"I AM" is Hayah

"The Lord" is Yehovah

I had thought in the past that Yehovah was just a descriptive word for God, but further looking shows it is the name of the Father, for he says it His name forever.

Thanks for asking that question, I will ponder it for a while and see if it still sets well, but I think it will.

[other one]

Peace all!

you know, all you Trinitarians would be better off refuting my questions I just posted. They prove my stance. along with the previously posted article refuting John 1:1.

MY OPEN CHALLENGE:

I challenge anyone to prove to me that Jesus is God. If they can do it I will become a Christian on the spot.

Peace,

~KB

Katatonic Bliss, I am going to repeat my request that you define the word "God" before discussing it. It is much too general of a word and has lead us all to confusion, maybe even to wrong religons.