Why not just let others believe?

[Grungekid]

The analogies you propose require evidence, of which faith has none.

Faithful people do have evidence, it is simply disregarded by the intelligensia, if that word deserves any of its connotations these days.

[Ovedya]

I happen to sell a great type of footwear - a kind of footwear that reduces shock and pressure to the lower extremity by 50%. This footwear can significantly reduce or eliminate pain in the knees, hips, and lower back caused by fatigue, the stress of working on hard surfaces such as concrete and asphalt, and even arthritis. In addition, I can custom form the footwear to achieve the best fit possible.

I want a pair. Where can I get them?

Depends on where you live. You can find a dealer at zcoil.com

[Ovedya]

I hope you don't mind me jumping in, but I wanted to say that what has come naturally to you I have never experienced. I read that Mother Teresa too lost all connection to God and wrote repeatedly to her friends and superiors for spiritual guidance. In her last decades, we have learned, she lost all sense of the reality of God. She carried on because she didn't know what else to do. She had effectively become an atheist and apparently it happened because of the unending suffering she was witness to. All this was revealed only after her death. When a person has no connection to God, no sense of a presence, then there is only the experience available from the physical world to guide us.

I don't agree that Mother Theresa became an atheist. I know that atheists and agnostics like to point to her as an example, but I think it's been intentionally overinflated. Fact, it we really do not know for certain to what extent she "lost her faith." I can only imagine how hard it was for her to reconcile the disparity between God's love and the sheer amount of pain that she witnessed on a daily basis. But to some degree I am witness to it too, and it actually serves to press me further into my faith. We are all human, and as humans we have a tendency on occasion to "lose faith." We lose faith in many things: Relationships, trusts, our jobs, our goals, etc. But usually determination, belief, and faith pull us through those times. To use my example again of the shoes. Those shoes do work great. But there are days when they don't feel fabulous to me. Yet I also know that they are overall of more benefit to me. So I keep wearing them anyway.

[Grungekid]

Faithful people do have evidence, it is simply disregarded by the intelligensia, if that word deserves any of its connotations these days.

I have heard this claim before. I think, however, that all your evidence comes from the Bible. The Bible, you think, is the inerrant word of God. Upon this assumption you base all your claims of proof, but the claim of inerrancy is strictly a matter of faith, is it not? So the proofs are also a matter of faith. The evidence of this is that the only people who accept the claims of inerrancy are believing Christians. The argument is circular. The way I see it.

Well, just excluding every Christian's personal testimony.

[SavedSinner]

I smell something burning.

[Guest William Price]

I would like to chime in on this subject, if I may.

As a minister, I cannot force someone to believe in Christ. However, I know that the Christian faith is indeed the only valid scriptural faith, and that Christ alone is the way of salvation. This is so vital to our existence as believers and disciples of Christ. We must share our faith with others, because our heart should be to lead as many to Christ as possible. This is all part of the Great Commission to all believers.

Allow me, if you would, to put forth this parable.

A man is walking directly into traffic. You see him, and you call out to him, telling him that traffic is coming, and he may be killed if he continues on the path he is on. He shrugs you off and says that he knows what to do. You plead and implore him to leave the freeway, and come to safety. You know it is not safe, and the results could be catastrophic if he continues. You know that you can call to him to come to safety.

This is likened to our faith and witness. We see atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Mormons, etc. walking down the wrong way of a dead end street. We know where they will end up if they continue. We have a duty, given by God, to preach against their sin, to proclaim the saving grace of God, and to do our best to help them come to Christ. Regardless of what they believe right nw, we know that according to scripture, there is only one way, one faith, and one Lord.

For a believer, it is about obedience and compassion.

[Smalcald]

Faithful people do have evidence, it is simply disregarded by the intelligensia, if that word deserves any of its connotations these days.

I have heard this claim before. I think, however, that all your evidence comes from the Bible. The Bible, you think, is the inerrant word of God. Upon this assumption you base all your claims of proof, but the claim of inerrancy is strictly a matter of faith, is it not? So the proofs are also a matter of faith. The evidence of this is that the only people who accept the claims of inerrancy are believing Christians. The argument is circular. The way I see it.

Well, just excluding every Christian's personal testimony.

A Mormon or Muslim could make the same claim based on the personal testimony of members of their faiths, but such a response does not address the issue I raised. It leaves unanswered my contention that circular reasoning is being engaged in.

Hi I am jumping in late to this a little so I apologize; probably everything I say has been said.

But yes speaking as a Christian I believe that circular reasoning at some level is being engaged in, it almost has to be, to explain any spiritual expression. My point is that reasoning itself is not going to create faith in any spiritual path including Christianity. There are other ways of knowing beyond our minds and beyond our logic, for the Christian that way is direct revelation from God through the Holy Spirit working through the Gospel. If you really talk to most believers, our arguments, our apologetics which are actually quite good particularly if you read some of the stronger apologists, came AFTER faith, not before. We believe because somehow the Gospel struck our heart and our soul, the Holy Spirit led us to feel our sin, to understand that this feeling is not normal, that indeed we yearn for a Savior, and that salvation through the person of Christ and His love, has the "ring of truth about it that all true things do" (from Lewis). But that is not logic; it does not pretend to be.

What we are called to do from our scripture is simply describe why we believe and for Christians that will have common themes but vary greatly.

(As an aside Mother Theresa indeed wrestled with doubt, but never lost her underlying faith, which is why she is a Saint of the Church today and of great comfort to many Christians who also have doubt. But doubt takes faith also. A teaching that Protestants sometimes forget is that Christ will not always be felt, but sometimes we must persevere, which is what it means to carry our cross, which is what she did).

[Matthitjah]

Hi I am jumping in late to this a little so I apologize; probably everything I say has been said.

But yes speaking as a Christian I believe that circular reasoning at some level is being engaged in, it almost has to be, to explain any spiritual expression.

Yes, I think you are right.

There are other ways of knowing beyond our minds and beyond our logic, for the Christian that way is direct revelation from God through the Holy Spirit working through the Gospel.

Christians of course believe the New Testament is revealed truth, but that assumption rests upon faith. The Bible says it is revealed truth therefore the Bible is the revealed word of God -- this is the circular argument.

If you really talk to most believers, our arguments, our apologetics which are actually quite good particularly if you read some of the stronger apologists, came AFTER faith, not before.

Meaning first there was faith and then there was conviction that it represented the truth?

We believe because somehow the Gospel struck our heart and our soul, the Holy Spirit led us to feel our sin, to understand that this feeling is not normal, that indeed we yearn for a Savior, and that salvation through the person of Christ and His love, has the "ring of truth about it that all true things do" (from Lewis). But that is not logic; it does not pretend to be.

And only a Christian, like Lewis, would experience the ring of truth. Someone such as myself detects only falsehood.

I have not read Lewis. Could you pick out one item that he thought had the ring of truth about it so that we might discus the matter further?

(As an aside Mother Theresa indeed wrestled with doubt, but never lost her underlying faith, which is why she is a Saint of the Church today and of great comfort to many Christians who also have doubt. But doubt takes faith also. A teaching that Protestants sometimes forget is that Christ will not always be felt, but sometimes we must persevere, which is what it means to carry our cross, which is what she did).

She wrote: "So many unanswered questions live within me afraid to uncover them ... because of the blasphemy ... If there be God ... please forgive me ..." This quote is from: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20...teresaanatheist

The link has a longer excerpt, but it really does sound as if she had lost her belief in God.

Grace to you,

Not being of the Faith you would not understand what MT was going through.

Let me put it this way though, the Priest that was counseling her in those letters and she herself never once thought that there was not a God and that He had abandoned her. She was merely asking why she felt like the Lord was keeping her at arms length and why she could feel no passion anymore. Some in the Faith call this, The Dark Night of the Soul." Where Teresa found Christ was in the faces of those she Treated and when she Loved them she Loved Him, even unbeknownst to her, however I'm sure the Lord has remembered it as a Memorial.

Her confession of Hypocrisy rings more True than your confession of atheism and the True reason why you are here.

Let's take a look at a little of Lewis;

Lewis wrote with passion of his conversion from atheism. One of my more favorite stories of his is about (I'm paraphrasing now) how he was locked away reasoning and trying to rationalize his own insanity. He was, in his own words, Shackeled and Bound and before him was the, "wisdom of the age." It would come in daily before him and torment him, with it's maddening grin. He was all set to sit down and enjoy a glass of refreshing milk as was his want in the morning while reading his paper. When, "the wisdom of the age," came in and sat down before him. One of the wisdoms minions delivered the milk on a silver platter and as Lewis went to draw deeply from this milk that he so enjoyed. The wisdom of the age hissed and growled and stated that the milk that he was so enjoying was nothing more than the excretions of a cow. Leaving him without any enjoyment whatsoever and really a bitter taste in his mouth. The next morning as his eggs were delivered just the way he liked. The minions delivering them on time, here came the wisdom of the age again to ridicule him. At this point he was quite insane and not prepared for what was coming. However as he began to eat the wisdom of the age said, "Those eggs that you are enjoying are nothing more than the fetuses of dead chickens." At this point quite completely insane and irrational and unable to even enjoy the more base things of life. He cried out for reason, he cried out for the Truth and rationality. Just then the Truth came ridinging in on a White Horse and scooped him up breaking his chains and unbinding his mind. The Truth restored reason and purpose. Just before they rode off together into Liberty the Truth upon the White Steed pointed His finger at the wisdom of the age and He said, "You Lie, because you take what God has meant for Good and twist it for bad. You make the Good that God ordained for nourishment into nothing more than feces and twist the Truth."

It would appear that this was the time when Lewis was on the fence between the insanity of his atheism and the reality in Truth of His Faith.

Peace,

Dave

[Smalcald]

Hi I am jumping in late to this a little so I apologize; probably everything I say has been said.

But yes speaking as a Christian I believe that circular reasoning at some level is being engaged in, it almost has to be, to explain any spiritual expression.

Yes, I think you are right.

There are other ways of knowing beyond our minds and beyond our logic, for the Christian that way is direct revelation from God through the Holy Spirit working through the Gospel.

Christians of course believe the New Testament is revealed truth, but that assumption rests upon faith. The Bible says it is revealed truth therefore the Bible is the revealed word of God -- this is the circular argument.

If you really talk to most believers, our arguments, our apologetics which are actually quite good particularly if you read some of the stronger apologists, came AFTER faith, not before.

Meaning first there was faith and then there was conviction that it represented the truth?

We believe because somehow the Gospel struck our heart and our soul, the Holy Spirit led us to feel our sin, to understand that this feeling is not normal, that indeed we yearn for a Savior, and that salvation through the person of Christ and His love, has the "ring of truth about it that all true things do" (from Lewis). But that is not logic; it does not pretend to be.

And only a Christian, like Lewis, would experience the ring of truth. Someone such as myself detects only falsehood.

I have not read Lewis. Could you pick out one item that he thought had the ring of truth about it so that we might discus the matter further?

(As an aside Mother Theresa indeed wrestled with doubt, but never lost her underlying faith, which is why she is a Saint of the Church today and of great comfort to many Christians who also have doubt. But doubt takes faith also. A teaching that Protestants sometimes forget is that Christ will not always be felt, but sometimes we must persevere, which is what it means to carry our cross, which is what she did).

She wrote: "So many unanswered questions live within me afraid to uncover them ... because of the blasphemy ... If there be God ... please forgive me ..." This quote is from: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20...teresaanatheist

The link has a longer excerpt, but it really does sound as if she had lost her belief in God.

I don't know I had read a good portion of what Mother Theresa had said some time ago and it looked to me like she was doing what many Christians do and that is wrestle with her faith in a very deep way, but I don't know for sure obviously, but even in what you quoted above; in her doubt she is still asking God to forgive her for her weakness of faith.

But on the other questions. You see I believe the New Testament authors, I don't think they simply made it all up whole cloth, so another way to believe is by accepting the testimony of those people, and I do. Certainly others don't and I understand that.

But yes Christians believe that faith is a supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit, strengthened by the Sacraments given by God, and something which we cannot create. We are simply called to present the Gospel and to try to impart why we believe it is true, what struck our heart about Christ?

For me I realized that I needed a Savior quite badly and I could not accept that concept that there was no such thing as sin that what human beings did was simply what they had evolved to do, there was no wrong or right, there were only social conventions about what worked or did not work. Christ to me when I read the New Testament is Truth; I don't really understand not believing the testimony of the Gospel but I also realize that not everyone does or will. But faith is not simply saying I believe an intellectual agreement, faith is beyond that, a change in who you are, a giving of yourself totally to Christ. Christ Himself said that many people who say they believe in me, really don

[P_Joseph]

EricH, my reason(s) for being here are irrelevant to the question I asked.

I simply don't understand why some people want others to believe. "why don't people of faith keep their beliefs to themselves".

Because Zer0 you are my neighbor and my love for you compels me to tell you of The Truth.

Your neighbor joe John 3:30