The ten nations that the Anti-christ will rule?

[Guest shiloh357]

That would mean Revelation 17-18 would have to be past history for that rule to be valid.

No it would not. What it means is that any attempt to identify Jerusalem as the whore is invalid. You simply do not have a grounds for the kinds of comparison you are trying to force onto the text. There is NO end-time prophecy regarding Jerusalem from the OT that confirms your indentification of the whore of Rev. 117-18.

There is no such rule in God's Word that corners His Word in such a way. If our Heavenly Father made an OT comparison to Jerusalem as Sodom in the spiritual sense per past history, and that kind of reference is used again for Jerusalem at a later date, it simply means to look for a similiar fulfillment as a type in the future.

Just because God referred to Jerusalem in past prior to the Babylonian exile as a whore, does not mean that EVERY reference to a city called a "whore" in the future refers to Jerusalem. You have not made any kind of logical connection between those OT references and the whore of Babylon. You have simply tried to connect them on the basis of terminology, but that is not sufficient. Furthermore, you do not have ONE statement in Revelation that positively identifies the Babylonian whore as Jersualem. You do not have a statement from the book of Revelation that identifies the whore of Babylon as a fulfillment of prophecy about Jerusalem. Ordinarily, when we have something in the NT that serves as a fulfillment of prophecy, the text will tells us something like, "this is what is fullfilled by the prophet (so-and-so)..." or something of similar ilk. You do not have anything that identifies a fulfillment of any prophecy in either Rev. 17 or 18. In short, you have NOTHING from a reasonable examination of the text that would suppport the notion that Jersualem is meant by the reference of "whore of Babylon in Rev. 17&18.

The rule for establishing that is what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 10:11 when he was outlining Old Testament events of history in his day, and saying they serve as "ensamples" for events yet future (the word "ensamples" refers to prophetic types.)

Enasmples or types is completely different that fulfillment of prophecy and is completely dissimilar to what you are doing here. What Paul is talking about about are things like the Passover Lamb as a type of Christ, or how the wandering in the wilderness for 40 years serves as an lesson for us today.

That is not what we are dealing with here. Your assertion is that because God called Jersualem a whore in OT prior to the Babylonian, it means that we can apply that term in Revelation 17,18 to Jerusalem, but you have failed to make a sound biblical connection. You are making the same mistakes I see people make over and over when it comes to interpreting Scripture. You are trying to force your conclusion onto the text instead of letting the text speak for itself.

That supercedes any parallel rule man might make up to serve a theological historicist or preterist view of Revelation 17-18.

Actually, it is your view that is held by most Preterists. The parallel rule is a simple rule of literary analysis. These hermeneutic principles prevent people from making the Bible fit their own agendas, as well as prevent people from making the Bible say whatever they want it to say. They are the same rules we use everyday when we read a newspaper, a cookbook or a biographical novel. If we approached other literature the way you approach the Bible, the result would be chaotic. It seems when it comes to the Bible, the rules thrown out, and anything goes. It is a chaotic and unsound approach to Scripture. God did not circumvent these rules when He inspired Scripture.

And that's what the rule you mention does exactly; it overrides what Paul taught in 1 Cor.10:11 and instead serves a historicist or preterist view of Revelation.

No, it doesn't. I am not a preterist. I am a Pre-Millennial Dispensationalist, and reject the Preterist view entirely. In fact, as I stated earlier, the notion that Jersualem is the whore of Rev. 18 is a view usually held by Preterists. Their view is that entire body of Bible prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D. and that is, in part, why they see Rev. 18 as being fulfilled in the fall of Jersualem in 70. A.D.

Then later Jer.51:7 has a similiar reference to that Rev.17 whore, but it was about historical Babylon. Why would God give those types for the harlot, first pointing to Jerusalem in a fallen state in the early chapters of Jeremiah, and then use them again in the latter chapters for Babylon?

You have not yet demonstrated that typology is being employed at all. There is not one shred of textual support for typology. There are rules and indicators in the text of Scripture when typology is being used, and there is not one indication fromt he NT that the reference to Jer 51:7 has any connection to Rev. 17.

You are trying to manufacture a connection that simply doesn't exist.

Rev 17:6

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

(KJV)

Matt 23:37-38

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

(KJV)

The reason why that Rev.17:6 reference to history of killing the prophets also points to Jerusalem, is because that's what happened in Jerusalem when it fell away from God into spiritual harlotry. When The Lord Jesus Christ was crucified upon a cross by the insistence of the Jewish Pharisees and chief priests, that showed the height of it.

The remarks Jesus gave do not match the description of the Harlot in Rev. 17. The description given in Rev. 17 comes much closer to resembling Rome as Rome marytred far, far more Christians than did Jersualem.

Those symbolic references weren't made up by me, they were used by God in His Word concerning past history about Jerusalem in a fallen state away from Him. And Christ used them again in Revelation. He made those references in Revelation, I didn't. Now if you want to deny those references He gave there about fallen Jerusalem for the last days, then that's up to you.

I am sorry, but you are making symbols out of texts that are not symbolic in nature and which give no indication that they are meant to be either symbolic, or typological. You are trying to manufacture this, and are not applying sound biblical interprative principles.

[Celt]

I think the references and symbols given in Revelation by The Lord Jesus Christ in relation to the Old Testament prophets is clear enough. God's two witnesses are to appear in Jerusalem and be killed by that one who ascends out of the bottomless pit per Rev.11:7 & 8. That shows God's two witnesses, and the beast entity described in Rev.17:8, 10, 11 will be located in Jerusalem.

[Guest shiloh357]

I think the references and symbols given in Revelation by The Lord Jesus Christ in relation to the Old Testament prophets is clear enough.

that does not change the fact that you have not yet provided a solid connection between Jerusalem and the whore of Babylon in Rev. 17. You have manufactured a connection that satisfies you, but you have not really provided anything that amounts to bonafide textual or theological credibility. Your approach amounts to you manipulating symbols to fit your theology which is an unreliable and fallacious approach to Scripture.

God's two witnesses are to appear in Jerusalem and be killed by that one who ascends out of the bottomless pit per Rev.11:7 & 8. That shows God's two witnesses, and the beast entity described in Rev.17:8, 10, 11 will be located in Jerusalem.

That is not the issue at hand. The issue is whether or not the whore of Babylon is Jerusalem. You have yet to establish such with any kind of credible, textual corroboration. You are making a lot of assumptions based on a erroneous premise and faulty interperative techniques. The notion that Jerusalem is the whore of Babylon simply carries no credibility and should be unequivicably rejectecd by any Bible-believing Christian. It a throw-back to the old anti-Semitic teachings of the early church which saw Jersualem as a whore judged by God in 70 A.D. and this, in part, fueled a great deal of the Christian persecution of the Jews over the centuries in Europe through the dark ages, even including the holocaust. On that basis alone, your view should be rejected.

[BlindSeeker]

Thanks for the welcome.

Good question. I am not aware of a scripture other than Daniel.

However, if the tribulation period is a period of 7 years, then in Revelation 6:1-2, there is a picture of a rider on a white horse given a bow and a crown. Notice that there is no arrow which indicates that he conquers through means of peace, not war.

Or . . . it may mean he really has no power, only an illusion thereof.

The crown would represent authority or power to me.

There are many in positions of authority with no real power. The two are distinctly different. A police man carries a gun (power) but he doesn't have the authority (legal authorization) to use it anyway he wishes. Same as a person who is in a legal place of leadership but lacks the powers or means to enforce his will, such as a leader in exile because of a overthrow, or a policeman who had his gun stolen in an assault.

Power - the ability or strength to accomplish something

Authority

[BlindSeeker]

I'm convinced Biblically there will be a "great tribulation" of a type that has never been before on this earth, like our Lord Jesus and the Book of Daniel declares, but I do not believe it will be a literal seven years period, because Jesus did say for His elect's sake the time would be shortened (Matt.24). If the last symbolic 'week' of Daniel 9 was originally meant to be a seven year period at the end, then it would have to be modified now since Christ said the time would be shortened.

If you would take the time to read my thread on MATTHEW 24 it would explain to you why I do not believe it was addressing the last days the way so many end timers and modern interpretation have it.

Plus, where else did Jesus change OT prophecy? Either it was seven years or not. The question is really can

[BlindSeeker]

Ok. Who then is the seventh beast today? And how did you figure it out? And where do you see the eighth as

[CU4EVER]

Thanks for the welcome.

Good question. I am not aware of a scripture other than Daniel.

However, if the tribulation period is a period of 7 years, then in Revelation 6:1-2, there is a picture of a rider on a white horse given a bow and a crown. Notice that there is no arrow which indicates that he conquers through means of peace, not war.

Or . . . it may mean he really has no power, only an illusion thereof.

The crown would represent authority or power to me.

There are many in positions of authority with no real power. The two are distinctly different. A police man carries a gun (power) but he doesn't have the authority (legal authorization) to use it anyway he wishes. Same as a person who is in a legal place of leadership but lacks the powers or means to enforce his will, such as a leader in exile because of a overthrow, or a policeman who had his gun stolen in an assault.

Power - the ability or strength to accomplish something

Authority

[wingnut-]

as far as rapture is concerned, we know the three main beliefs, pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib. in my opinion pre-trib fits most closely with scriptural references, but i do not rule out the possibility of a mid-trib as of yet. concerning a post-trib i see no possibility whatsoever, unless someone can explain to me who inhabits the earth during the millenial kingdom.

[George]

Who inhabits the earth during the 1000 year reign?

Well, are you referring to glorified perfected bodies or to those who dwell on the earth repopulating the earth?

I believe as saints we'll be reigning with HIM. Now the question arises over whom?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

God bless,

George

[Serving God]

You are absolutely on the right track. If you read Ronald Weinland's book titled "God's final witness" you will see that what you are saying is in line with what he said, although I have some reservations on alot of other things he mentioned. It is quite clear that the Roman Catholic Church will have a great religious-political part in the 10 nations, it's quite coincindental that the words (vicarvis filii dei) are written on the pope's crown, if you convert the letters in roman numerals to their equivalent numbers in english, they all add up to 666 (revelation 13), coincidence, I don't think so, God is trying to tell us something.