Outcry?

[senerhu]

Catsmeow

Let me be perfectly clear. I do NOT stand for porography nor do I condone the use of it.

But I DO endorse using nakedness as a means to gain intelligence that saves tens or hundreds of thousands of lives.

that is 10's to 100's of thousands of lives!

I support our pentagon not affording TERRORIST the same rights as prisoner of war status.

They fight in mosques, they use women and children as shields, they murderer innocent people.

enough said!

[Guest yod]

after today's news I'm ready to start castrating all Iraqi prisoners.

I bet that will slow down people joining their ranks!

[Catsmeow]

I will stand with you and say, "We were wrong,  it was wrong, is wrong and will bring nothing but harm to us to try and justify it.

Thank you. Finally, somebody... :sweating: has the guts to admit it.

Our difference is in believing why we did it, and exactly who is responsible for the decision to do it (or lack of oversite to let it happen).

Lucifer is behind all this {AMEN} and unless we understand this we will not respond properly.  This is much more than a band of radical musilm's, it is a spiritual war that we are loosing at the present time.

I know more than you may think...I tend to believe Satan's kingdom is like an onion and many in government are a part of his kingdom.

I realize there are smoke-filled rooms and vile people orchestrating all this...I'm with you on this one...

The world is an evil place just like it was before the flood and it is hopefully about time to clean house again.  I'm to the point of quoting the president you think so highly of..... "bring it on".......

OtherOne: I have always supported our president. I am having a very hard time with that position now. I might be persuaded otherwise now. I'm deeply troubled by some things I see happening during this administration.

[other one]

btw, I don't believe I or many on this board would go along with hitler...

Actually early on a lot of christians thought hitler was a great person. It wasn't until around 1939 or 40 that he showed his real side that they really saw him for what he was. No one on the scene today has had the time to show their real personalities for they do not have the total control... yet.

It's coming and then we will see who is what..... unfortunately it will be much too late to do anything about it.

Sam

[Guest kitkat]

might i remind everyone that the geneva convention wasn't written just for american troops. ALL countries are required to abide by it during times of war. sadly enough, too many countries could care less about even giving a thought to the rules of warfare.

I agree with you LadyC! You are absolutely right.

The murders of Pearl and Berg have absolutely no regard for the Geneva Convention and I can only pray that they will be caught and brought to justice.

catsmeow

People who use pornography as a means of "interrogation" ..I want nothing to do with.

I cannot imagine anyone with the Holy Spirit of God in them thinking we can ever excuse pornography as a means of interrogation.

The bible says, "Do not beget evil for evil but beget evil for good."

WIP, I have hidden His Word in my heart that I might not sin against Him. My heart tells me this is an abomination and God is displeased with this behavior.

I don't advocate the use of pornography. I am a very moral person myself. My husband Senerhu and I have accepted Jesus Christ as our personal Savior.

I do know that the humiliation is one of the means of gaining intelligence and there is a FINE LINE on how this can be done morally.

If our soldiers crossed the line in doing this, they should be brought to justice. If they didn't cross the line and it gained intelligence that saved innocent lives, then as far as I'm concerned they are my heroes.

I wanted to add something else.

I watch the news every day. In this day and age, we can't afford NOT to watch the news and be aware of all that is going on.

As I sat there and watched the terrorists standing behind that innocent American soldier, preparing and carrying out his brutal torturous death by beheading him, it made me SICK!!! You will have to forgive me, but there is a lot of emotion seeing something like that and to me, that soldier isn't just another American soldier that is dead. No, I don't know him, but I cannot understand the heart of a person who says he's just another dead soldier. Where is the love in saying something like that?

If you don't like what's happening, why not be an activist? Instead of just praying about it, take some action!! Do something about it, instead of whining about how nobody knows or prays about it but you and nobody cares but you with your superior angst here!! Since you've BEEN THERE and DONE THAT with almost everything, you shouldn't have any trouble coming up with an IDEA or a PLAN that will ultimately change the OUTRAGE!!:oww:

We need to remember that Al Quada is responsible for firing the first shot on our country. They wanted war, so I guess they got what they wanted.

Kat

Edited May 12, 2004 by kitkat

[Catsmeow]

I understand exactly what you're saying Catsmeow, even if nobody else does. It's strange, I've always voted republican and been very conservative but since I've stopped supporting GWB and this "war", putting Christianity ahead of politics I've suddenly found myself being tagged a "blame America first liberal".

I used to wonder how anybody could have went along with Hitler or how the anti-christ would ever be able to get anybody to worship him. I don't wonder that anymore. Too many people have made politics their religion and they don't even realize it.

Personally, I think we need to pull out of Iraq, come home, regroup and get our own affairs in order. We can't "win" over there, we've already lost. Why drag it out so more people can die.

It's so sweet to hear a voice of reason.

People who are posting here aren't familiar at ALL with the Geneva convention and somehow think this means there's no muscle behind interrogation.

There ARE some rather unpleasant means of extracting information from prisoners, sleep deprivation being one of them. That can be pretty miserable and without sleep, people CAN get very "vulnerable".

There's also psychological techniques that can be used to coerce information.

I'm all for saving lives ACCORDING to the Geneva Convention...but from reading some of these posts, it's clear I'm talking with people who think the ONLY thing that can be done is the "name, rank and serial number"...when that's NOT the case.

There's a whole lot more to the Geneva Convention than that and yes, these people are indeed POWs...

You can call them anything...terrorists or whatever but they are prisoners of war and we are in their country.

Now, I have supported the war. I have supported our president.

But I have never lost sight of who I am in Christ. I DO believe in using "muscle" to get information to save lives. I totally agree.

I DO NOT agree with this insane justification of stripping prisoners of their clothing and posing them.

That is NOT in the Geneva Convention and one would be wise to read it's contents before assuming it lacks teeth.

The GC is highly effective in extracting information and isn't pretty but it sets a limit on how low we can go when dealing with prisoners.

These people ARE POWS and no you cannot call them all terrorists...they haven't rec'd a trial and we'd scream bloody murder in this country if denied that right.

Some of those people were actually innocent. Some were NOT. So...let's all embarass and humiliate every man or woman in the prison based on whether they've been apprehended?

No, let's abide by the Geneva Convention, use the muscle we're allowed to use and frankly...I hope we get the heck out of that country and go home.

I haven't seen the WMD's I thought were there...I believed the president and I see NO WMD's...so why are we there?

I supported the war and fought verbally for it and took a stand against those who opposed it.

Now, why? I see our people being slaughtered left and right and we're not teaching those people a "new way of life..." but we're teaching them that westerners are vulgar and degrading to their prisoners.

How incredibly sad.

We can no longer say we are the victims...now we know there's two sides to the story.

I was prowar. I was proBush...I AM still conservative...but I have serious reservations about the war and Bush now.

I had hoped we could be in a better position to spread the gospel in Iraq. Now, what chance do we have?

[Catsmeow]

One Accord...I see you're online.

For once, I am in total agreement with YOU now...and what you've said all along now makes perfect sense to me.

[Guest yod]

We can no longer say we are the victims...now we know there's two sides to the story.

I was prowar. I was proBush...I AM still conservative...but I have serious reservations about the war and Bush now.

which is exactly what CNN and CBS wanted.

We are all victims in the war against terrorism. That's why it can't be fought like any war preceding.

[senerhu]

I was prowar. I was proBush...I AM still conservative...but I have serious reservations about the war and Bush now.

Some of the positives:

.... The first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has graduated and is on active duty.

.... Over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their fellow citizens.

.... Nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.

.... The Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

.... On Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518 megawatts-exceeding the prewar average.

.... All 22 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges are open, as are nearly all primary and secondary schools.

.... By October 1, Coalition forces had rehab-ed over 1,500 schools - 500 more than scheduled.

.... Teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries.

.... All 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open.

.... Doctors salaries are at least eight times what they were under Saddam.

.... Pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current total of 12,000 tons.

.... The Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccination doses to Iraq's children.

.... A Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and women.

.... We have restored over three-quarters of prewar telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable water production.

.... There are 4,900 full-service telephone connections. We expect 50,000 by year-end.

.... The wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are coming to life in all major cities and towns.

.... 95 percent of all prewar bank customers have service and first-time customers are opening accounts daily.

.... Iraqi banks are making loans to finance businesses.

.... The central bank is fully independent.

.... Iraq has one of the worlds most growth-oriented investment and banking laws.

.... Iraq has a single, unified currency for the first time in 15 years.

.... Satellite TV dishes are legal.

.... Foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for minders and other government spies.

.... There is no Ministry of Information.

.... There are more than 170 newspapers.

.... You can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner.

.... Foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and go.

.... A nation that had not one single element - legislative, judicial or executive - of a representative government now does.

.... In Baghdad alone residents have selected 88 advisory councils. Baghdad's first democratic transfer of power in 35 years happened when the city council elected its new chairman.

.... Today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business, school and professional organizations are electing their leaders all over the country.

.... 25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing body in Iraq's history, run the day-to-day business of government.

.... The Iraqi government regularly participates in international events. Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference Summit. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has announced that it is reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world.

.... Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren't.

.... For the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.

.... The Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of a strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.

.... Uday and Queasy are dead - and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to the zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation, torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or murdering critics.

.... Children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with the government.

.... Political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.

.... Millions of long-suffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual terror.

.... Saudis will hold municipal elections.

.... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents.

.... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.

.... The Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian -- a Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and for peace.

.... Saddam is gone and in jail.

.... Iraq is free.

.... President Bush has not faltered or failed.

.... Yet, little or none of this information has been published by the Press corps that prides itself on brings you all the news that's important.

Iraq under US lead control has come further in six months than Germany did in seven years or Japan did in nine years following WWII. Military deaths from fanatic Nazis, and Japanese numbered in the thousands and continued for over three years after WWII victory was declared.

[Catsmeow]

Iraq is not free.

It's engaged in a civil war - religious factions (Shiites vs Sunnis) are out assasinating each other's clerics.

How free is that?