Left Behind - will there be a "Rapture"?

[Massorite]

It's a matter of semantics and definition of terms. Rapture is just a way of describing the change of those still alive at the Second Coming.

I am way past complaining about that word "rapture". It is still talking about the resurrection. The words are all talking about the same thing.

[Massorite]

I hope you can see what I am talking about. All these things I have mentioned are prophetic and haven't happened yet, Praise God!!! Before any of these things take place, the rapture will take place. This is were we as beleivers meet Jesus in the air. He doesn't come all the way to earth at this point. Then the 7 years of tribulation happen. At the end of the tribulation, Christ comes back to earth for a second time, this time to Rule and Reign FOREVER!!! Praise God and Glory to Jesus!!!

I can see where you're coming from (though the large and different font/colour sizes are quite distracting at times). But I think that the prophecies of Revelation are far too generalised and symbolic to be truly meaningful in understanding End Times. THe anti-Christ, for example:

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour! - 1 John 2:18.

There are many anti-Christs (all who are against Christ - anti (against) Christ). i don't see there will be one anti-Christ who will rule the world, rather many. For me, the moment Jesus died and resurrected, he overcame the power of Satan. He in effect bound Satan's abilities. though he can (and still does) interact with the world, the effect of sin is symbolically "chained" just as predicted in Revelation. As such, we are now in the End Times. I suggest taking a quick read of Amillenialism and how as an Amillenialist in view already believes Jesus' death conquered Satan and we are already living in a spiritual "millenium" of peace in Christ.

Revelation is just way too symbolic for me to take literally word-for-word, filled with imagery, figurative language, descriptive terms. I'm always happy to discuss various points of view and am very interested in hearing other points of view on Eschatology, but when it comes down to it, I have come to what I feel is "right", though I admit I could be wrong on this, but even if I am, it's what I consider a "non-essential doctrine" - unless of course, people start disappearing, in which case I hope I'll be one of those that get caught up (after all, not believing in the Rapture does not necessarily disqualify one from it, lol

All the best, JIME

~ Paranoid Android

The early church fathers understood Revelation to be read as a collection of allegories and symbols. Augustine went so far as to forbid the "carnal" (literal) reading of the book. Revelation was written by John as a "revenge fantasy" against the Roman empire after the destruction of Jerusalem. When Rome embraced Christianity in the fourth century, there was no more incentive to hate the Roman empire and Christians began to search for other interpretations of the book. In the Middle Ages, literal readings became more popular, leading to what eventually became the pretrib/rapture millenial scheme of interpretation. What a literal reading does not account for is John's use of pagan as well as Jewish apocalyptic imagery; for example, the great red dragon and the woman clothed with the sun is very similar to the story of the birth of Apollo in Greek mythology.

So your saying that God had nothing to do with the book of Revelation and that it was Pauls feelings of revenge that lead him to write the book and not God. Right? Which means that God has no control over Paul or his writtings. Right? Which means that the whole bible is just a bunch of books that have been written and inspired by men and not God. Boy we have been so decieved. Smack I could have had a v-8.

[Littlelambseativy]

I guess this is why Daniel was told

12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

in the early church fathers' time and in Augustine's time they could not imagine the things that are happening now nor could they imagine the things that have now been invented - things that certainly point to the 'end times' and the rapture.

The military now has miniature weapons that resemble insects and drones how in what manner could the eaarly church fathers OR Daniel imagine this?

[LadyPrudence]

I did a search for this topic, and did find a few interesting threads about it, but from what I could find, none of them were polls which could gauge how many people believed in the Rapture or not. The basic question - Is the Bible clear on the definite Rapture occuring, or is the complete lack of early historical writings, particularly from some of the greatest minds in Christian history, evidence that there are other interpretations of these verses???

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

The Rapture is a very common belief among many Christians today. But has it always been so?

It may come as a surprise to many Christians, but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 A.D. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned a syllable about it - Further reading

There exists at least one 18th century and two 19th century Pre-Tribulation references, in a book published in 1788, in the writings of a Catholic priest Emmanuel Lacunza [9] in 1812, and by John Nelson Darby himself in 1827.[10] However, both the book published in 1788 and the writings of Lacunza have opposing views regarding their interpretations, as well.

The rise in belief in the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture is sometimes attributed to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald (a follower of Edward Irving), who in 1830 had a vision that was later[11] published in 1861.

The popularization of the term is associated with teaching of John Nelson Darby, prominent among the Plymouth Brethren, and the rise of premillennialism and dispensationalism in English-speaking churches at the end of the 19th century - Further reading

[Massorite]

I did a search for this topic, and did find a few interesting threads about it, but from what I could find, none of them were polls which could gauge how many people believed in the Rapture or not. The basic question - Is the Bible clear on the definite Rapture occuring, or is the complete lack of early historical writings, particularly from some of the greatest minds in Christian history, evidence that there are other interpretations of these verses???

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

The Rapture is a very common belief among many Christians today. But has it always been so?

It may come as a surprise to many Christians, but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 A.D. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned a syllable about it - Further reading

There exists at least one 18th century and two 19th century Pre-Tribulation references, in a book published in 1788, in the writings of a Catholic priest Emmanuel Lacunza [9] in 1812, and by John Nelson Darby himself in 1827.[10] However, both the book published in 1788 and the writings of Lacunza have opposing views regarding their interpretations, as well.

The rise in belief in the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture is sometimes attributed to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald (a follower of Edward Irving), who in 1830 had a vision that was later[11] published in 1861.

The popularization of the term is associated with teaching of John Nelson Darby, prominent among the Plymouth Brethren, and the rise of premillennialism and dispensationalism in English-speaking churches at the end of the 19th century - Further reading

The idea of a pre-trib rapture did not exist during the early church which is why there is no documentation on the subject from any of the early church leaders.

[Floatingaxe]

The idea of a pre-trib rapture did not exist during the early church which is why there is no documentation on the subject from any of the early church leaders.

Sure it did.

[Massorite]

The idea of a pre-trib rapture did not exist during the early church which is why there is no documentation on the subject from any of the early church leaders.

Sure it did.

"Sure it did" Doesn't prove anything to any body. Perhaps you can give a quote from an early churc leader who lived within the first three hundred years of the church. Or prove that the bible says "there will be seven years of tribulation" or quote the verse that tell us that the "restrainer is the church" if you can.

[Floatingaxe]

The idea of a pre-trib rapture did not exist during the early church which is why there is no documentation on the subject from any of the early church leaders.

Sure it did.

"Sure it did" Doesn't prove anything to any body. Perhaps you can give a quote from an early churc leader who lived within the first three hundred years of the church. Or prove that the bible says "there will be seven years of tribulation" or quote the verse that tell us that the "restrainer is the church" if you can.

Paul says a lot, and so does John!

[Guest yod]

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[Joshua-777]

I think the Rapture will happen the Day of the Lord, If You look at the 6th seal, in Rev 6, Rev chapter 7 is a continuation of 6. Same seal. I believe after God comes thats it though no one else will be saved except the remnant.